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Topic   Justice League

bonham2
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* 18-Nov-2017(#1)
This was yet another DC movie with lackluster reviews that I thought was really good. I think people are just ragging on DC nowadays just because. It's like DC can do nothing right and Marvel is god.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Here were some of the complaints I read:

They're fighting CGI monsters - I guess all those aliens/flying lizards in the Avengers were made with old-school puppets...
Too much dialogue/explanation - Everyone must have seen the special edition of The Avengers where they don't all sit around for 1/3 of the movie talking about things.
Superman & Batman are still not likable characters - Superman isn't around that much, but once Lois shows up, he is as likable as any other version of Superman. They even go out of the their way to show him smiling and having fun. He also stands for truth and justice again. Batman is Batman...at least he's not killing and/or branding anybody now.

The biggest complaint I read is the way they handle Wonder Woman. They argue that there are no scenes showing her interacting with the Amazonian warriors, and they talk about how she takes a backseat and is not the leader of the group. I think it's probably more of a liberal complaint where women should be equal or greater than the men. The simple truth is Batman is the WB money maker and Superman is clearly the most powerful of the group. She is like the Thor of the group in a lot of ways. Her backstory is mixed with mythological stories. She's like a god, but she's not invulnerable. I don't remember them showing Thor interacting with Asgard too much in the Avengers movie. She grows as a character thoughout the movie and embraces her destiny as a hero. I thought she was handled really well.

Thoughts?
KCPenguins
Gold Good Trader
* 18-Nov-2017(#2)
I didn't see it, but I was disappointed in WW (I was close to liking it, and I really wanted to). The DC movies (in general) fail at injecting humor consistently, which is fitting for their universe. I think that's why the "darker" DC movies did well. A generalization, yep. Marvel excels when they can mix humor with action well.
bonham2
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* 18-Nov-2017(#3)
This one does pretty well in the humor department. Flash is clearly the most comedic of the group. He's the DC equivalent to Spiderman mixed with Quicksilver from the X-Men movies. Aquaman has a few funny one-liners, but he's more of a dude-bro in this one. There is one scene in particular with him that is pretty funny which I will not spoil.

I really think this is the best adaptation of Superman in the 3 DCEU movies that have had him, even though his role is limited. In my opinion, he's so much more powerful than everyone else in the group that it kind of makes the rest of the group obsolete (for future movies). Cyborg certainly has some abilities that Superman can't duplicate. But the rest might as well just watch.

And I agree about Wonder Woman. That's the film that did the best with the critics, but I found that one mostly boring. BvS certainly had it's flaws, but I liked it a lot more than Wonder Woman. Suicide Squad too...Again, I know it has it's flaws, but that was a fun movie (at least the first 2/3 of it).
KCPenguins
Gold Good Trader
19-Nov-2017(#4)
I'll be renting it as soon as I can. Only movie I'm going to see in theaters this calendar year is Star Wars. (Young kids)
Puppyburger
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19-Nov-2017(#5)
I'm a major Batman fanatic, never read a single comic but my start was the movies in the 80's

That being said I'm a Marvel fan to where the rest of my family are DC

We all seen both Thor Ragnarok & Justice league all within a week and after seeing Justice League they even said they would rather watch Thor again.

We all as a whole thought it was a great movie but it definitely had its flaws.

Spoilers possibly below :

I do feel Ben Afleck pulls off the best billionaire Bruce Wayne but as Batman he's kinda meh, but would like to see him in his own film to see how it comes together, loved all the other heroes as I feel they fit their roles well, but also would of loved more backstory on flash and cyborg.

Did not like the Villain either, kinda seemed like they just threw him in there because they wanted to try someone not mainstream, know I do know the backstory of the villain so I can see what they are trying to lead up to, kinda the same thing with Thanos and his "minions"

Superman is usually my least favorite BUT he definitely was awesome it this film, possibly his best yet, not much dialogue but when he showed up he basically made everyone seem so underpowered when he came and defeated the villain in 5 minutes to where all the other heroes were having extreme problems even touching him for the whole movie.

All in all though I feel it was a good movie and hope it does great so WB continues, then again maybe I just want some standalone Batman movies!!

theJaw
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* 19-Nov-2017(#6)
On the subject of the "liberal" desire for WW to appear more as a leader, that's likely because that'd be accurate to how it was presented in the comics. Her, Superman and Batman are the "trinity" that lead the League. If her role seems lesser than theirs in this movie, it should be criticized.

Plus if we're talking "money makers", Wonder Woman made the most cake & has reaped the highest praise since the Nolan trilogy so there's that.
bonham2
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19-Nov-2017(#7)
Batman is DC's bread and butter. That's why the Man of Steel sequel turned into a Batman film. I think she was portrayed really well. She was equal with Batman in the creation of the League. She's extremely underpowered compared to Superman.

The other complaint I read was that she was sexualized, making reference to Flash's awkwardness around her and Batman obviously wanting her. There were definitely showing her butt more than necessary, and they did make comments about her appearance. But they also had Superman and Aquaman spend a significant amount of time shirtless. And Marvel movies sexualize pretty much every man and Black Widow. Between Thor and Cap, the shirtless quota is certainly filled.
theJaw
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* 19-Nov-2017(#8)
Yah they're gonna make everyone look sexy, especially if Zack Snyder is directing. Dude over-sexualizes everything.
tonymack21
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* 20-Nov-2017(#9)
sounds like they aren't familiar with the material if they are doging that WW is not the leader, the trinity in my experience with JL material are more or less all learders by committee and they don't have a de facto "leader" in the way that the xmen just do what Cyclops says or the avengers defer to cap.

theJaw
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20-Nov-2017(#10)
tonymack21 wrote:
> sounds like they aren't familiar with the material if they are doging that WW is
> not the leader, the trinity in my experience with JL material are more or less all
> learders by committee and they don't have a de facto "leader" in the way that the
> xmen just do what Cyclops says or the avengers defer to cap.
>
>

I think the argument is being made that while Batman and eventually Superman come off as true leaders of the League in this movie, WW's role is lesser than theirs. Which wouldn't be accurate to the comics because, like you mentioned, the trinity all act as equal leaders in the comics. So yah, it seems "they" aren't familiar with the source material if the "they" in this instance are the producers haha
bonham2
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20-Nov-2017(#11)
Like I said, WW is integral in the creation of the league and recruitment of members. In my opinion, she is more of a leader than Superman is in the movie. He just kind of shows up at the end and makes everyone else look like a joke. That's my problem. She's supposed to be just as powerful (or at least pretty close) as Superman, but she struggles with Steppenwolf while Supes just wrecks him.
tonymack21
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* 20-Nov-2017(#12)
im pretty sure the large power gap is also accurate to the comics? WW is no joke but often we don't see supes giving it 100% because he doesn't want to kill, but he has few equals when he wants to push himself. at their max he is exponentially above most. she couldn't hope to hold herself in a fight with him were he giving it everything he had.

EclipseLion
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20-Nov-2017(#13)
I've heard this movie's Flash acts too much like Wally West

theJaw
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20-Nov-2017(#14)
tonymack21 wrote:
> im pretty sure the large power gap is also accurate to the comics? WW is no joke
> but often we don't see supes giving it 100% because he doesn't want to kill, but
> he has few equals when he wants to push himself. at their max he is exponentially
> above most. she couldn't hope to hold herself in a fight with him were he giving
> it everything he had.
>
>

Right but that's not the question. Regardless of power or strength, she's always been painted as a leader of the Justice League.

Also don't know why I don't care about spoilers with these DC movies haha. I still haven't even seen this yet.
John
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20-Nov-2017(#15)
I saw this Saturday and enjoyed it. Thought it was quite decent. Not as much humor as Thor 3 or anything, but still fun with young Flash in there.

I think this suffered from poor marketing.
tonymack21
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20-Nov-2017(#16)
ya I get that, I was more saying that in regards to what bohnam said about her power in comparison to supes.

theJaw
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20-Nov-2017(#17)
tonymack21 wrote:
> ya I get that, I was more saying that in regards to what bohnam said about her power
> in comparison to supes.
>
>

Gotcha, I didn't see his post initially. Sorry bud. yes
bonham2
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20-Nov-2017(#18)
John wrote:
> I saw this Saturday and enjoyed it. Thought it was quite decent. Not as much humor
> as Thor 3 or anything, but still fun with young Flash in there.
>
> I think this suffered from poor marketing.
>

How is it actually performing? Did it do well this weekend? I wasn't even really talking about the box office. I was talking more about the overall critic consensus. It seems like they are very quick to crap on DC movies, and they have already made up their minds about Henry Cavill and Ben Affleck's roles.
tonymack21
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20-Nov-2017(#19)
theJaw wrote:
> tonymack21 wrote:
>> ya I get that, I was more saying that in regards to what bohnam said about her
> power
>> in comparison to supes.
>>
>>
>
> Gotcha, I didn't see his post initially. Sorry bud. yes

ya i figured :D

John
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20-Nov-2017(#20)
bonham2 wrote:
> How is it actually performing?

They have been calling it a "flop" basically -- because opening weekend was so far below expectations.

That being said, it did $96 million (with an expectation of $110 million). But, to them, that's "a flop" apparently. Basically, if it doesn't break $100MM in the first weekend, then it's pretty much considered a failure.

This was on a budget of like $300MM though! So, it's unlikely to make that up anytime soon...

Part of the problem was poor marketing (IMO). Part of it is that Thor 3 turned out to be really good, so word of mouth has people going to see it the same weekend instead. And a big part of it appears to be that that Wonder movie did incredibly well! It was expected to do $9MM and did 3 times that at $27MM!
Felty
Has Written 6 Reviews
20-Nov-2017(#21)
Was gonna watch this on Thanksgiving but may watch Thor instead.
John
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20-Nov-2017(#22)
I enjoyed both, but really enjoyed Thor. My wife and I went to see it twice in the theater -- and I don't think we've ever done that before. yes

(Note that my movies are free because I have a MoviePass -- so I likely wouldn't PAY for it twice -- but, still...)
bonham2
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20-Nov-2017(#23)
Thor was pretty awesome. Thor, Justice League, and Star Wars all in about a 6 week period. That's my holy trinity right there.
secret_defender
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21-Nov-2017(#24)
If something does not go to the amount they want, it's usually considered a flop. DC hated and thought Superman Returns was a flop but it made money as 1 example. That's really with any retail whether movies or stores. They have set those amounts riduclously high before. To me i want it to flop so they either will quit this crap or reboot it the right way, after bat v sup i disowned the continitty of that series, worst superhero movie of all time including 2003 hulk and that boring ff film. I strongly suggest you just stick with the 90s justice league movie based on the 'sissy' team very low budget than this pile of crap. I hate so much cause superman is one of my favs and what happened to him in that film is wrong, i admit i knew batman would win if they actually fought but the way it was done was garbage. It was done before in the comics and animated i accepted it done a thousand times or more better but that was not right. Many more flaws, zod's clone is NOT doomsday for one. Esspecially terrible worst lex luthor of all time. Did not see wonder woman but if she acted anything like in bat v supe it would suck,i think cause so popular cause unique female lead superhero, just cause of that fact alone does not make a good or bad film. Saw suicide squad so so quinn and killer croc stole the show could have been better instead of just a light show and bickering all the time, i wonder if sequel or solo films like to see quinn solo but i could see her with joker, and not to change pace should be same joker, i know some didn't really care for that joker.

Heard Darkseid wasn't even in it. Is that fact? That would be so disappointing right there. I thought this was supposed to be part 1 but it appears to have ended with lex in a cameo as a setup to a sequel if it's made.

Spoiler: Thor 3





How can Thor beat Hulk? in every comic it was either stalemate or hulk wins; hulk even took on the entire avengers and nearly won thor included, has this been rebooted and hulk is weaker now? I'm not a big fan of either but that fight should have been awesome on screen but hulk had to have help to defeat thor which is wrong hulk does not need any help
bonham2
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* 21-Nov-2017(#25)
It's the same reason Batman beat Superman. Thor was the star of the movie. Of course he had to win. Money talks.

By the way, Superman is my favorite comic book hero too. I loved Superman 1 & 2, and I thought Man of Steel was awesome despite Superman being so serious. BvS was not a good movie... at all. I liked Superman in Justice League though.
tonymack21
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* 21-Nov-2017(#26)
its so hard to translate something like super heroes to live action and do it well. i'll see JL with the kids but still so largely prefer the dc animated stuff, ive liked almost all of the new stuff they are doing there, cant wait for the next league movie whatever follows war and atlantis, and looking very forward to young justice season 3. miss KC as batman but Jason O'Mara is doing a pretty good job, if we cant have KC he def seems like the next best thing ive heard, didn't care for baker nearly as much as the bat.

Demonis
Gold Good Trader
21-Nov-2017(#27)
Unlike Wonder Woman, which was a huge disappointment, Justice League was okay.

I've always had frustrations with DC because I feel like their heroes aren't properly balanced. And I'm sure this could be a huge debate with people who know far more than I ever care to about the universe, but it seems that WW and Aquaman should be stronger than Superman. Superman, I get it, is their classic big money maker along with batman, but c'mon. Did the whole film have to feel like a Superman pep-rally?

Meh, I enjoyed watching it, but far less than Avengers or any of the Marvel films really. Aside from Batman I just can't get invested in DC.
tonymack21
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* 21-Nov-2017(#28)
no the whole idea is superman is THE guy. most anyone is dust under his feet if he wanted them to be. hes always been the baddest motha on the block in terms of raw power. he rarely unleashes it fully. I love how in the injustice stuff they are all so afraid of him, because they know without kryptonite or magic they wouldn't have a prayer.

injustice spoiler


like when he kills shazam like he was nothing, less than a housefly to him



unbalanced and overpowered heroes are why I preferred marvel over dc back in the day, their heroes often weren't so op you knew they just couldn't lose, they were relatable and had weakness and were more human somehow, but prefer dc now because marvel is just so bad. dc's properties are iconic, and ive always loved green lantern even back then. and as I mentioned before their animation is just so good the last few years, and I prefer anything animated over live action.


John
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21-Nov-2017(#29)
secret_defender wrote:
> If something does not go to the amount they want, it's usually considered a flop.

Yes, but those amounts are what is needed to be likely to make up the investment.

Again, this was a $300MM movie that didn't break $100MM on opening weekend. That pretty much means it will be a "flop" in that it will make a ton less than "break even."

Now, they do fudge those numbers a bit -- but I think the $300MM was even the before-marketing number for this one! So, it's likely legit as far as costs go.

> DC hated and thought Superman Returns was a flop but it made money as 1 example.

Well, Superman Returns cost around $200MM and made almost $400MM. So, clearly, not a "flop."

The question will be whether or not Justice League can get to those numbers when released internationally.

> How can Thor beat Hulk? in every comic it was either stalemate or hulk wins;

Hulk gets beat by lots of people in the comics. Including Thor.


He even does it using lightning. I guess the movie isn't as far from the comics as you thought...

Also, even in the movie, I would almost call it a draw anyhow. We never see it get finished since it gets stopped with both of them still there.


theJaw
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21-Nov-2017(#30)
tonymack21 wrote:
> no the whole idea is superman is THE guy. most anyone is dust under his feet if he
> wanted them to be.
>
>
>

This is the premise for the comic series Irredeemable. It's set in a superhero universe where its "Superman", the Plutonian, breaks bad and becomes the villain. It focuses on former allies who know they stand no hope against Plutonian but need to try regardless. Really great story, I highly recommend it.
tonymack21
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21-Nov-2017(#31)
that sounds pretty sick

Scott
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21-Nov-2017(#32)
bonham2 wrote:
> She's supposed to be just as powerful (or at least pretty close) as Superman, but
> she struggles with Steppenwolf while Supes just wrecks him.

Is she though? The way they portrayed her in Wonder Woman, it didn't seem like she was very close to as powerful as Superman. Well, I guess she's about as strong as him, but she lacks invulnerability, right? That's a pretty big difference. Or did something change in this film and she becomes more powerful? I haven't seen it yet, just skimming through the comments.

theJaw
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21-Nov-2017(#33)
Wonder Woman historically isn't as strong/powerful as Superman, just stronger-willed. She's Superman's hope whenever he loses it.
Osiris
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21-Nov-2017(#34)
OK, here's my problem:
If Thor is the god of thunder, then why do his eyes light up and lightning spring from his fingertips? Lightning works.

shouldn't he just be causing loud noises? Riddle me that!
John
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* 21-Nov-2017(#35)
Osiris wrote:
> OK, here's my problem:
> If Thor is the god of thunder, then why do his eyes light up and lightning spring
> from his fingertips? Lightning works.

I know, right? My wife always points this out. I try to argue that "well, thunder and lightning go together" just to make it work, but, yeah, seems like he should be the God of Lightning...

It's especially obvious in the latest movie because Hela is like "Now what are you the God of again??" several times -- and then lightning comes. Heh. smile
bonham2
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21-Nov-2017(#36)
Scott wrote:
> bonham2 wrote:
>> She's supposed to be just as powerful (or at least pretty close) as Superman,
> but
>> she struggles with Steppenwolf while Supes just wrecks him.
>
> Is she though? The way they portrayed her in Wonder Woman, it didn't seem like she
> was very close to as powerful as Superman. Well, I guess she's about as strong as
> him, but she lacks invulnerability, right? That's a pretty big difference. Or did
> something change in this film and she becomes more powerful? I haven't seen it yet,
> just skimming through the comments.
>
>

The thing is, the comic book world changes so much. Superman has gone through so many changes over the years, but if we were to take Superman at his most powerful, nobody can match him. He could basically destroy a planet with his full strength. The same can be said for Wonder Woman's strength (it constantly changes). They have fought before and usually come out in a draw since they are both pulling their punches, but there was one time they fought were Superman was going full on beast mode on her. She still wasn't trying to hurt him, but she took everything he had and still got up. She isn't invulnerable, but neither is he (I mean he died in the last movie). Her sword has cut him in the comics. She took on Ares in the WW movie, and she held her own against Doomsday in BvS, so she is pretty powerful even in the DCEU.

I am certainly no expert in the world of comic books. I'm more into the movies. I just have a problem with how easily he beat the crap out of Steppenwolf when the entire team was seriously struggling with him.
tonymack21
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21-Nov-2017(#37)
that's why they've had to change superman so much i guess. , there got to be such a power gap its like well what can we come up with to go against this superman that we have made into a near god in power?

theJaw
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21-Nov-2017(#38)
I didn't expect it, but I'm actually looking somewhat forward to watching this eventually. I'd feel obligated to regardless for another cinematic Batman appearance. After BvS I thought I was sticking to fan edits for thr DCEU but I'll give this a shot. I feel like a few film critics are a little too anti-DC by nature at this point and their reviews show bias. Sooo I'm gonna check this out with an open mind. Probably not in theaters but definitely as soon as it's around the internet. Very excited to hear that Superman finally gets an accurate treatment even if it's with limited screen time and a glitchy upper lip.
bonham2
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21-Nov-2017(#39)
Oh yeah, the lip thing is weird. It's not throughout the entire movie. It's really only in earlier flashback scenes, but it is weird. I think it's a bit weirder that he looks so gaunt. It's kind of like Hugh Jackman and how he got older but more and more ripped for each Wolverine movie. The same can be said for Cavill. He looks older and thinner and more ripped (if that's even possible). And while they certainly definitely paid attention to, and corrected, some of the viewers complaints about Superman, they still have tons of stupid decisions. I mean, it's one thing to explain Superman coming back from the dead (he's an alien after all), but how do you explain Clark Kent coming back? They buried him, and he was definitely in the casket. He just goes back to being alive and goes back to his old home and old job...stupid.
secret_defender
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21-Nov-2017(#40)
I think also not poor promotion but poor timing. As everyone said it's thor 3 which this continitiy is hot since avengers (this isn't a poor sequel of what it seems unlike avengers 2) and star wars. I don't know what makes dc think they could stand against star wars. Star wars is like King but i don't like it, i started with the 1st one or episode 4 didn't even brother with the rest but i can see why the holiday special from the 70s is hated, i know the prequels are weak and the restart continuing is red hot. You should have waited or did it before Star wars at least DC. You waited on bat v sup so no excuse. Rushing is usually a bad idea.


Thor and Hulk that's probably right, thor's movie and thor more popular. But then it could have changed i don't get comics anymore can't (i do miss getting them) so last hulk i probably read is like early 2000s or some limited series, i mostly read the bronze and silver age hulk. As to why i knew batman would win though not in that stupid armor suit supes is better than that, i'm pretty certain luthors armor in comics much more powerful yet supes won but not by strength by smarts.

In the comics where he died and kent returned i can see that, that's realistic somewhat in recorded history people have survived harsher conditions. I avoided jla cause i hated bvs, i know what people say and such but Kent just returns like you said is stupid.

Everytime i read superman vs wonder woman superman wins and i'd have to agree. I like both but the wonder woman movie i probably won't even though i skipped it, i mean ww without the lasso or rarely uses it is like beavis without butthead in my opinion unless that changed in new 52 lineup which is what this based on mostly. I'd prefer martian manhunter over cyborg though but that weren't bother me that much; it's superman that bothers me and luthor as jeese.

Spoiler:

How come what i hear is mother box returns superman to life yet at the end of bvs, you can hear his heart beating back to life, i could see that happened before in comics appeared dead and then his powers slowly returned even in a superfriends episode, it's like too much poison and was taken out, body heals even 6 feet under ground sun can still sometimes sneak in, dirt settles or moves etc. I don't really care for how superman came back to life in superman 82 though.
tonymack21
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* 22-Nov-2017(#41)
I actually really like parts of ep2 and ep3 is pretty good. 4/5/6 will always be the top of course, but the hatred of the prequels is overblown, 1 is pretty bad and parts of 2 are ugh but parts are good and ep3 is quite good. 7 wasn't terrrrible, but I hope 8 and 9 are a lot better. for the next set id like to see them go back to the old republic timeline like in kotor that would be siiiiiick.

but yes bad timing as well, im sure this is still gonna make a ton of money in the end.

John
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22-Nov-2017(#42)
secret_defender wrote:
> Spoiler:
>
> How come what i hear is mother box returns superman to life yet at the end of bvs,
> you can hear his heart beating back to life, i could see that happened before in
> comics appeared dead and then his powers slowly returned even in a superfriends episode,
> it's like too much poison and was taken out, body heals even 6 feet under ground
> sun can still sometimes sneak in, dirt settles or moves etc. I don't really care
> for how superman came back to life in superman 82 though.


Yeah, I thought the same thing. Basically, in my opinion, they completely ignored that something was clearly happening at the end of BvS to indicate that Superman was still alive or at least something was going on there. They used the box to bring him back in JL -- and it was really as if they could have brought anyone back that could handle it. In other words, it didn't seem to have anything to do with the end-scene in BvS. He could have been "really, really dead with no signs of life" and it was implied that the box would still be the thing to bring him back.

I didn't like that they basically ignored that setup. But still enjoyed the movie overall.


bonham2
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22-Nov-2017(#43)
The end of BvS just confirms that they are really making this crap up as they go along. Whether or not that is the case with the MCU, it seems like they have a plan. They are basically following the comics while taking a few liberties. The DCEU is just crapting all over DC's history. For the record, I'm fine with that since I'm not much of a comic reader.

The problem is there have been WAY too many continuity errors...
Like Batman pointing out how Wonder Woman has been in hiding for a century...
Like Lex Luthor finding these meta humans and basically giving them their symbols (and Flash just magically puts that symbol on his costume)...
Like Flash can run fast with or without his costume, which makes the costume pointless...
Like Aqua Man claims to be young, but there is a picture of him on the tavern wall that looks like hieroglyphics...
Like Aqua Man has apparently never been to Atlantis (what exactly has he been doing for either hundreds of years or 30 years? does he just swim around?)...
Like why would Wonder Woman and Batman completely ignore the Earth threatening events of Suicide Squad and let the bad guys beat the witch with a baseball bat?
Like how did Miles Dyson find and then use the power of the Mother Boxes...
Like why did the mother boxes only start activating themselves after Superman died? What happened in the 5000+ years in between the original war and Superman's arrival on Earth?...
Like how do they explain Clark Kent's revival???
Like why did Lex want Superman to fight Batman and then STILL make Doomsday assuming that the only person on Earth that could stop it would be dead...and what would have happened if Doomsday won...then what do they do with a giant, unstoppable monster?
And let's not even talk about Martha...

This is just a few reasons why people have such a problem with the DCEU.
John
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
22-Nov-2017(#44)
Agreed -- I feel the Marvel has things mapped out over a 5+ year period with all of the movies as they mix together (which, you have to admit, is fairly complex and yet they seem to be doing a decent job of it).

But, for the DC stuff, it does seem like a "Well, whatever someone comes up with that looks like it will sell is fine -- I don't care if it lines up to the end of the last movie" sort of attitude.
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
22-Nov-2017(#45)
It was blatant when Nolan confirmed he was ending his Bat-films with "Rises" and didn't want to opt his version of Batman into the would-be Man of Steel universe that DC began fast-tracking a different DCU without the Nolanverse as its foundation. I remember for a while, even right up to MoS's release, WB wanted MoS to be an extension of the Dark Knight trilogy but it was all up to Nolan (and in part Christian Bale, I imagine). Which in my opinion is why DC didn't feel the need to revisit Batman in a solo film before cramming out BvS - because the Nolanverse was still fresh on everyone's mind. Once Nolan decided to just help produce MoS it was clear they were panicking to get things going.

All of the DCEU, even the good parts (part* aka Wonder Woman) just seems like such a rush job to compete with the MCU. Now they're stuck with Justice League which is estimated to end up costing WB $100m (or something like that) according to a report I saw - because they had to rush and had to try to match the MCU's success. If they just built it organically and accepted that they wouldn't reach MCU-levels of success over night, we'd have a much more accurate portrait of our favorite DC heroes.

Or, you know, if Nolan just let them use his trilogy haha
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
22-Nov-2017(#46)
bonham is right even though some listed i didn't know. I would say aquaman is supposed to be old, it could be like lost his memory and don't know atlantis this was done as a pilot when smallville aired, not sure why they didn't run it. About flash's costume, i can see running with and without costume, the costume is to hide the identity from the public however if this is wally west in the 90s where everyone knew it was him, it's useless.

Didn't see it, not really batman fan but i did see begins which i did not like however i know dark knights are totally different and not really a sequel, plays like a sequel to another movie Nolan left it a cliffhanger i believe. Talk said maybe nightwing would come up. I do know Bane is a thousand times better here than batman & robin.

Maybe wonder woman is good different director but i don't know why they picked a skinny model which is basically it if you seen her not in makeup. I'm fine with the breasts, i know people was complaining about it, her counter really didn't make sense the people call it like the comics not reality.

Suicide Squad at ending why could not el diablo finish it, had her then all of a sudden weak as a puppy didn't make any sense to me. Although appeared to have died but i don't get how a explosive or fire can kill him, he is fire.

Besides supes my favorite is barry allen flash, best comic series silver bronze age. Liked the 90s tv show but i haven't seen new flash series hope they didn't ruin it or slow motion like smallville but it looks like according to the episode titles it's rushed on some of them just like superman animated series look at all the origin stories in a row. I always hated that speed force they invented, i think they still use it in the new 52 lineup.
tonymack21
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 450 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 3 Reviews Secret Santa
22-Nov-2017(#47)
I actually really like gal Gadot as ww. I think she looks the part pretty well? I like Cavill too I think less than stellar direction has been an issue for him in the role?

theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
22-Nov-2017(#48)
tonymack21 wrote:
> I actually really like gal Gadot as ww. I think she looks the part pretty well?
> I like Cavill too I think less than stellar direction has been an issue for him
> in the role?
>
>

Agreed. Gal is a great Wonder Woman and Cavill could be a great Superman - but there just hasn't been a good script including Cavill's Superman yet.

I'm hopeful for this movie, having not seen it yet. Slightly. All of @bonham2 's points are true and super rough haha. I'm really just somewhat excited to see a "true" treatment of Superman in the sense that he's a little lighter and not the grim butt-hole from the past two movies, and with the DCEU I feel like we just have to live with the plot holes now -_-
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
* 23-Nov-2017(#49)
So apparently Cavill is only contracted to play Superman one more time. There are articles speculating which DCEU movie will "be his last" so it doesn't seem like any contract negotiations have taken place or anything. That'd be a pretty big hit to an upstart movie universe, to have its main protagonist since the beginning just stop being in the movies. Between this and the constant "Is Affleck done with Batman" rumors, I'm wondering what the DCEU will look like in a few years. I'm not at all interested in a DC universe with no Superman or Batman.

Of course, there are other ways to keep the "names" around - by having new characters take over the roles - but, just like in the comics, it just won't feel the same without a Bruce Wayne Batman or a Clark Kent Superman.

I almost feel like they should just call it a day. By that I mean, wrap up the DCEU movies they have on the schedule and then give it a 2-3 year (more likely a 1 year) rest before rebooting it completely. There's no unwritten rule stating that a superhero movie universe needs to be ongoing the way Marvel plans theirs to be. Just like trilogies come to a close, they could easily close out their DCEU series of movies and move on to reboot it organically.

Just for the fun of it, here's the little lay-out I did for my ideal DCEU back around the time BvS was in theaters. Haven't read this in a while but at that point, this is what I would have liked to see given I had to use the films they were already openly producing:



PHASE 1:
1. Man of Steel
- This should have just been the official start, despite that not really being the "full" intention from the get-go and the mixed reaction.

2. Suicide Squad - Since this is already happening, and being a small-scale team-up movie, it should have come out before any JL team-up movie (like BvS). It should have been a way to immediately introduce a slew of DC's rogue gallery, while debut the new Joker & tease the new Batman with the flashback scenes. While it will still likely act as build for the solo Batman movie, the fact that BvS already happened and debuted Batman sort of makes this a "why bother" type deal other than to weirdly debut Joker outside of a Batman film.

3. Man of Steel 2 - A straight-up Superman sequel that would deal with MoS's aftermath and BvS's questions of "should there be a Superman?" MoS2 would include all BvS's Superman/Lex/congress stuff. It would've probably been just as boring and grim as MoS, though ideally this would be the "course-correction" movie that would hopefully add more of a comic-tone as opposed to apocalyptic/realism tone that ended up being the case. We'd also get our first tease of Wonder Woman here.

4. The Batman - Next, we would get "The Batman" that dealt with Affleck's older Batman coming to terms with the death of a Robin while dealing with The Joker & Harley Quinn. This movie would feature just about all the Batman stuff we got in BvS in order to set the character up, emphasizing more on the loss of Jason Todd at the hands of The Joker as Batman's primary tragedy as opposed to the death of his parents. Shoehorn a Killer Croc appearance somewhere in there to make Suicide Squad not completely pointless. We'd get another mention of Wonder Woman here, including a reworked version of the scene from BvS where Bruce Wayne researches her and learns her secret. We'd also get a tease for the Batman sequel, with Jason Todd's Red Hood making a cameo or some tease toward him being alive.

5. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Not to make the blatant comparison, but use this movie as DC's "The Avengers." An event film that would serve the "event film" purpose without blowing the whole load. The first official pairing of the main Justice League characters - including the debut of the new Wonder Woman finally. We got the solo movies, we got the differing ideologies and the teases at a rivalry, we're set. Use Lex Luthor's issues with Superman from MoS2 to set up the rivalry between Batman & Superman much like BvS actually did. Except now we have all the set-up out of the way, and we can focus on a straight-up BvS movie with Luthor (likely using congress) pulling the strings, planning some sort of death-blow for Superman. It'd take Wonder Woman's nearly-ancient knowledge to get the two to team up and boom, we have the foundation of the Justice League established. However, we still get the "Superman is dead" deal at the end here, maybe Luthor gets the fatal blow in anyhow and gets away. Now we have a second-guessing Batman worrying about Luthor returning and wreaking havoc, but Wonder Woman would calmly mention "other" superhuman's that she's aware of and you get the tease of a JL recruitment. Then tease Doomsday plummeting to Earth like in the "Death of Superman" comics.

PHASE 2:

6. Wonder Woman
- Have her face off with someone like Circe while giving her a proper origin film since it's never happened before. Wouldn't mind an Indiana Jones-style movie (kinda like Captain America) that sees her fighting in the Amazon and showing off her technique. At the end, maybe a slightly-depressed Lois Lane shows up and fills Diana in on a "huge threat" that news outlets are picking up on via their sources - Doomsday's arrival on Earth. This would lead to Wonder Woman making some quip about having to hurry and get the "recruitment" done, teasing JL some more.

7. The Flash - Introduce the new Flash, have him face off with Zoom or someone of that stature and give us his DCCU origin story. Maybe use this as a chance to have Eisenberg's Lex Luthor resurface and tie him to The Flash's overall struggle somehow. Maybe he's the one with the technology that would lead Flash into a whacky, multiverse-spanning time-travel plot. Once Flash saves the day, Wonder Woman shows up and invites Flash to help her "save the world," mentioning that she's got "a friend" helping the recruitment process.

8. Cyborg - Make this a straight-up sci-fi spectacle, with Cyborg taking on maybe Vandal Savage or somebody. Have Deadshot from Suicide Squad act as a rival-turned-eventual-ally in this one, due to Cyborg being the lesser-known hero in the DCCU necessitating some star recognition for the movie. Show us Cyborg's superhero origin, maybe use Deadshot as a sort of "guide" for him despite differing ideologies, then have him overcome all the confusion to cement himself as a bonafide hero. After the climactic battle, have Batman re-emerge and recruit Cyborg similar to how Wonder Woman recruited Flash, while also teasing...

9. The Batman 2: Under the Red Hood - Adapt the Under the Red Hood storyline to fit this continuity (would not be difficult). This way you get Leto's Joker returning for his third time, and we get the pay off to the Jason Todd/Death of Robin story from "The Batman" 1. After everything pays off and we have the climactic end scene, Batman is looking over Gotham Harbor while on patrol when suddenly Aquaman and an impressive platoon of Atlantean soldiers pop up from the surface of the water. He'd let Batman know that he's aware of "the threat," and he wants a "spot on his team." Yet another JL tease while also introducing Aquaman in a way that would make the character seem of extreme importance (which is something Aquaman desperately needs.)

10. Justice League - Now at this point, throwing an Aquaman solo film in before the JL movie would seem sort of like overkill - it'd be much more effective to have him show up in Batman 2 and then act as the back-up for Justice League. Anyhow, have this be the big "Justice League vs. Doomsday" arc from the comics, with Superman being revived in order to finally finish up the Justice League line-up and defeat the threat of Doomsday. Maybe include anti-heroes like Red Hood, Deadshot and some other Suicide Squad characters to do a "face turn" and help out against Doomsday at some point. Lex Luthor would of course act as a secondary villain here, perhaps being the one responsible for leading Doomsday to Earth - so we'd be able to get the pay-off of a revived Superman confronting Lex Luthor. Maybe tease Darkseid somehow at the end to push the whole "on-going" thing, though I have no real ideas past this.

11. Aquaman - Aaand the Aquaman solo, if you're the type of person who really needs that. Personally for me, while not the same sort of character, I feel like Aquaman works similar to the way Hulk does - best when in an ensemble scenario. But I suppose it'd be cool to see him having to come to terms with caring for "surface-dwellers" after the attacks from Doomsday in the JL movie. While at the same time he'd be facing the pressure of his people, who tend to dislike anyone from outside Atlantis. He could face off with Ocean Master or Black Manta as the primary threat, and maybe bring in Flash or Cyborg to give him help and prove to the Atlanteans that not all surface-dwellers are bad. This could work as DC's "Thor," with Atlantis being the "other-worldly" realm that our hero hails from like Thor from Asgard.

EclipseLion
Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
23-Nov-2017(#50)
Any comic fans in the house? Issue #1 out now:

image

theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
23-Nov-2017(#51)
EclipseLion wrote:
> Any comic fans in the house? Issue #1 out now:
>
> 666 1024{imgt}
>
>

I set up a whole thread for comics! (Just gotta re-open it haha)

I read Rebirth and The Button so I'm looking forward to Doomsday Clock, but I'm holding out for the trade paperback.

Pretty surreal seeing that Watchmen font/banner on a cover with Superman haha yes
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
23-Nov-2017(#52)
I would vouch for the reboot too. But i would have the title Worlds Finest instead of Versus. Of course they will disagree and not trust each at first. Make up either in the middle or toward the ending team up to defeat a combination of villians luthor being one. On Justice League start with Darkseid and his Whole army, showing apolipikps too, as a team not main focus on one or two (xmen main focus wolverine; here it's wonder woman and batman likely mostly batman); i would set it up so all heroes fail but batman comes in to outsmart darkseid and lets go of his victory, they did that in comics in one story. Doomsday could appear i suppose somewhere along the line but no ressecurting or death of superman and make it a real doomsday beast like it should be. No batman in armor either.

Read that warner expects 100mil loss on jla. Seriously? No they won't they will at least break even or make some money just not what they want.

Rebirth? in comics. A reboot or big change like gl rebirth already?
bonham2
600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 2 Reviews
24-Nov-2017(#53)
Minor profit not reaching initial, lofty expectations = loss for movie studios.
six
Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
24-Nov-2017(#54)
I think flashpoint ( if it evens happens should reboot the universe.) they have great actors just need good writers. I haven't seen this movie yet but heard mixed things. They shouldn't of rushed this.
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
24-Nov-2017(#55)
Justice League Flashpoint wasn't too bad. Never read that storyline in comics but i'm sure it's different somewhat at least. My least favorite of the animated is Justice League Dark and Frontier, and that elseworld tale can't remember the name. I've seen animated with Superman in them only except batman killing joke which was not good at all it's more of a mess and drags out at the carnival scene. The Justice League animated where they first meet is way better than this movie; even when bats first meet superman in the 90s series much better than bvs.
JD
400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
24-Nov-2017(#56)
secret_defender wrote:
> Justice League Flashpoint wasn't too bad. Never read that storyline in comics but
> i'm sure it's different somewhat at least. My least favorite of the animated is
> Justice League Dark and Frontier, and that elseworld tale can't remember the name.
> I've seen animated with Superman in them only except batman killing joke which
> was not good at all it's more of a mess and drags out at the carnival scene. The
> Justice League animated where they first meet is way better than this movie; even
> when bats first meet superman in the 90s series much better than bvs.

This i agree i even had those comics where they first meet and blaze was villian
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
26-Nov-2017(#57)
Just thought of something else that could make it make less money than expected. It could copy Avengers. May not for scenes but could be similiar enough to notice it can match the same concept like the villian with horns and cgi villians. Avengers is still fresh on peoples minds, certain infintiy war has people excited and some would rewatch the 1st two to prepare for the big one.
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
* 7-Dec-2017(#58)
So according to most recent Hollywood talk, it's nearly confirmed that Matt Reeves will be recasting Batman for "The Batman".

Apparently Variety reported on this being a result of a shake-up WB is doing with DC after Justice League failed to impress.


"While Ben Affleck is expected to appear as Batman in a standalone Flash movie, it is highly unlikely he will don the cape and cowl in Matt Reeves' planned standalone Batman movie. The director is said to want to cast the role with fresh talent, according to sources."


More reports came out that Affleck is officially signed onto appear in Flashpoint, the "solo" Flash movie, and then that's that. Which furthers my belief that Flashpoint is just going to act as a soft-reboot for certain aspects of the DCEU. I mentioned recently that Henry Cavill is only contracted to do one more movie too with no reports about contract negotiations. If that's the case, Flashpoint could not only reboot Batman but also reboot Superman, hence the word solo appearing in quotes earlier. Flashpoint will probably be the DC equivalent to Civil War in that it'll be about one character but incorporate others, i.e. Batman and Superman - like the comic.

As of right now, both Flashpoint and The Batman have no release dates but are obviously currently in production. The only movies DC actually have slated for release are Aquaman in 2018, Shazam! in 2019 and Wonder Woman 2 in 2019. It's extremely possible that Flashpoint acts as a legitimate end to this DCEU and an immediate bridge to a full-on new one. Ezra Miller would likely remain as Flash - but the others are up in the air. I imagine they'd want to keep Gal Gadot for Wonder Woman. Jason Mamoa's Aquaman will most likely be a case of "he can come or go" in that the general public won't really care after only one solo movie. Cyborg is pretty much already dead in the water as far as the DCEU goes. And then there's Superman and Batman - who are already likely to be recast.

Certainly seems like the DCEU is going the way of Sony's Spiderverse.
six
Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#59)
I really liked Batfleck in BvS but understand him leaving. Honestly they should just scrap everything and start again after flash point. I wanna see Jeffery Dean Morgan play Thomas Wayne in Flashpoint.
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
* 7-Dec-2017(#60)
Yah that'd admittedly be pretty badass to see JDM play an alternate version of Batman.

So recently reports came out stating that John Hamm was interested in the part for The Batman. Last month word was that the studio were apparently eyeing Jake Gyllenhaal for the role. Personally, I wouldn't mind either of those guys getting a shot at it, to be honest. I think they could both put a cool swerve on the character. Gyllenhaal would probably fit better under the mask whereas Hamm looks like he'd make a perfect Bruce Wayne. Personally, I've always thought Michael C. Hall could play a good Batman based off his role in Dexter.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what comes about in the next 3-4 years.

I know it'll never happen in a million years but a multiverse Batman story would be great. Give me Bale, Affleck & Keaton in one Batman movie. We can ignore the Schumaker years because Kilmer isn't in the right shape for it and Clooney probably would never don the cowl again out of respect for the character and fanbase haha
six
Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#61)
A multiverse batman movie would be awesome. I think a Batman TV show needs to happen one similar to the Netflix marvel shows. Titans is being made on the new DC streaming service coming out. Movies don't have enough time to flesh out the batman villains or even include them all.
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
8-Dec-2017(#62)
In my opinion, if Flashpoint is green light, it jumps way to far ahead like another rush job. They can just reboot it but you don't need to restart the origin story again just start with an adventure. Maybe even a real Justice League first not this crap. Take ideas from comics and animated but don't copy them, use a original setup but not garbage like bvs. Or have a superman that adapts luthors armor and that planet with his love interest there, that would be cool for one idea, there's plenty more that could use. Oh Batman never in armor nor wonder woman in sword and shield it's the lasso. No need to show muscles or have actors with muscles i mean just look at the perfect superman Christopher Reeve. I don't get the tv shows muscles for guys smallville for example but when supergirl comes along or another woman it's like a model no muscles. Hate to break to people but people don't get muscles like they show by working on a farm.
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
8-Dec-2017(#63)
I agree on leaving out the origin. Have Flashpoint do what it pretty much did in the comics - just kickstart a new version of certain characters. Ben Affleck is slated to be in Flashpoint (I believe it's already been greenlit), so I say pull a Doctor Who and throw the old Batman and the new Batman in the movie. Have Affleck's Batman understand that the reboot is necessary for whatever reason (maybe so that the entire world isn't grim and apocalyptic like in BvS), aid Flash in his quest, and then introduce the new Batman on the other side of the climax.
JD
400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
8-Dec-2017(#64)
But batman doesn't regenerate

Wasn't there small crossover somewhere?
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
8-Dec-2017(#65)
Haha no, he doesn't regenerate. By "pull a Doctor Who" I mean introduce a new incarnation in the same story that the old incarnation leaves. Create a story that splits the dimension so that some of what came before sticks around and the rest is rebooted into new versions. Really, the only overly offensive characters from the DCEU (besides Luthor) are Batman and Superman. Batman lesser so, it's just his overly-aggressive violence and liberal gun use that muffs his character up. Otherwise, Affleck is a good Bruce Wayne and his Batman looks superb. Superman, however, has been horribly directed in the DCEU save, apparently, for his time in Justice League (which I have yet to see so can't judge yet). His outings have been grim, he's come off like an butt-hole, he barely saves people and he seems to only care about Lois Lane above anyone else.

Luckily, those are the two characters whose actors are ready to call it quits. So reboot the two foundations of the DCEU to more accurate portrayals of their characters, have them join up with the already-successful Wonder Woman, and restart fresh. They might want to keep Mamoa, they'll probably keep Gadot, maybe keep the main players in Shazam because they wouldn't want to let Rock go, but otherwise - literally any character could be rebooted into a better version.
JD
400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
8-Dec-2017(#66)
Michael Keaton could pull off as old bruce for nostalgic reason
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
8-Dec-2017(#67)
That's what I'm saying. Give me a multiverse Bat movie with Keaton, Bale, Affleck and the new guy. I'd be there opening night.
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
10-Dec-2017(#68)
I didn't get to read any of the flashpoint comics but i saw flashpoint animated movie. It was ok, i don't hate it; i don't think it follows though unless very little, some other animated adaptations don't follow to well i noticed like killing joke.

I'd rather to start over as if don't exist; Returns did that forgot about 3 and 4 but Singer didn't know what he was doing though at that point it should have been rebooted whether it be origin or another adventure.

The Rock as Shazam? What kind of casting is that? Can't reboot or restart with flashpoint with this. Don't even have to know the plot to know this casting is bad. This goes back to what i said about muscles. It's not muscles that determine the star.

razeak
Double Gold Good Trader Has Written 9 Reviews
10-Dec-2017(#69)
It was okay. A lot of stuff was good, but it's a choppy film. There was something I saw in the opening sequences that really peeved me off but I'm not sure if I read the shirt right.

I'll probably grab it on vudu or something. I did ultimately enjoy the movie. 7/10 barely.
theJaw
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
10-Dec-2017(#70)

@secret_defender Rock was cast as Black Adam, not Shazam.
secret_defender
Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
11-Dec-2017(#71)
I figured that was the villian and probably origin story. Still Rock as a God or that much power? Rock is like Arnold S in his prime, properly casted in action packed violent and guns, military but drama or comedy it was no go specially Mr Freeze. Wasn't much on the shazam comics but i've seen superman shazam animated movie, it was ok but i think if i remember correct shazam and black adam stole the show, i can see why superman was weak in this. Also the 70s shazam live action show, good but it was focused on little kids along with isis (the show not the terrorist group).

Another example is Rock in Get Smart, you can tell he was misplaced and stood out in that movie, could usually beat the good guys but did not. Although didn't see it, i bet Rock was miscast in Baywatch.
six
Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
22-Dec-2017(#72)
I just watched and I do not get the hate at all, I understood bvs hate but not this one. I thought it was great. The comedy was top notch, action scenes are great and it was just fun all around.

Topic   Justice League