Politics

Topic   Masterpiece Cake Shop

Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
5-Dec-2017(#1)
Oral arguments in SCOTUS are today. Huzzah!
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
* 5-Dec-2017(#2)
i am very interested in these type of cases, look forward to debating the raw elements at some point.

Gorsuch in the spotlight for previous decisions, hobby lobby, will have to check out little sisters of the poor ruling.

quick summary:
https://www.aclu.org/cases/masterpiece-cakeshop-v-...
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
5-Dec-2017(#3)
I'm firmly on the side of Phillips, but this will be very interesting. Will also have big implications for any future cases.
SirConnery
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 1000 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
6-Dec-2017(#4)
Trump likes him some oral arguments...
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
6-Dec-2017(#5)
SirConnery wrote:
> Trump likes him some oral arguments...

You mean Clinton right?
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
6-Dec-2017(#7)
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-re...

The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
6-Dec-2017(#8)
Of course there's that whole bill of rights thing...
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#9)
If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope of any real progress in this country under this administration.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
7-Dec-2017(#10)
What does the scotus have to do with "this" administration?
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#11)
yankees7448 wrote:
> If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope of any
> real progress in this country under this administration.

lol. You're an idiot.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#12)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope of
> any
>> real progress in this country under this administration.
>
> lol. You're an idiot.

And you're a Trump supporter.

*mike drop*
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#13)
longhornsk57 wrote:
> What does the scotus have to do with "this" administration?

This administration nominated a judge to the SCOTUS that was stolen from Obama and will probably vote to legalize discrimination.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#14)
yankees7448 wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> yankees7448 wrote:
> |>> If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope of
>> any
> |>> real progress in this country under this administration.
>>
>> lol. You're an idiot.
>
> And you're a Trump supporter.
>
> *mike drop*

*mic
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
* 7-Dec-2017(#15)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>> If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope
> of
> |>> any
>> |>> real progress in this country under this administration.
> |>>
> |>> lol. You're an idiot.
>>
>> And you're a Trump supporter.
>>
>> *mike drop*
>
> *mic

No. I juust dropped a guy named Mike on his head.




Fudge you man!!! Damned grammar Nazi got me before I could edit it. Now its permanent. lol
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#16)
I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#17)
Dustin wrote:
> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.

That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#18)
yankees7448 wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
>
> That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.

Serious question. Say you were an artist, and I could hire you to create some art for me. I come into your shop and say I want you to paint me a picture of Trump that says "Trump is the greatest president in history". You obviously disagree with that. Do you feel that you should be required by law to make this for me? You don't think you should have the option to say no thanks, I'd rather not spend my time on something I disagree with?
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
* 7-Dec-2017(#19)
to return to the cake of the matter, as usual Kennedy is the swing vote.

some discussion here, very pro gay but it is still a tough sell overall on the constitutional issue for the gay side:

http://www.towleroad.com/2017/12/masterpiece-cakes...
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#20)
I honestly can't see how this is even a case.
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
* 7-Dec-2017(#21)
its a case because colorado protects gays against discrimination in public accommodations, so you have to go federal to strike down either the application of that law in this case or the entire colorado law which would be a big deal. typically the court makes the most narrow decision they can on a 5-4 decision, but remains to be seen.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#22)
Except "discrimination" doesn't apply in this situation.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#23)
The biggest distinction for me is refusing service vs. refusing a specific expression within the service. The owner does not refuse service to gay people, or anyone else. He would sell anything in his shop to anyone. The only thing he declined to do was a specific cake for a specific ceremony. This is not a "hang a 'no gays' sign on the door" type of situation, as many are trying to paint it.

Should a Muslim have to sell me, a Christian, a soda in his convenience store? Sure.

Should a Muslim be forced by law to decorate the words "Jesus is Lord" on [insert product they make] for my Christian party or event? I say no way.
dracula
Triple Gold Good Trader Has Written 7 Reviews
7-Dec-2017(#24)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>> If the court rules in favor of the baking bigots then I have lost all hope
> of
> |>> any
>> |>> real progress in this country under this administration.
> |>>
> |>> lol. You're an idiot.
>>
>> And you're a Trump supporter.
>>
>> *mike drop*
>
> *mic

vdub is that you?
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#25)
Scots wrote:
> The biggest distinction for me is refusing service vs. refusing a specific expression
> within the service. The owner does not refuse service to gay people, or anyone else.
> He would sell anything in his shop to anyone. The only thing he declined to do was
> a specific cake for a specific ceremony. This is not a "hang a 'no gays' sign on
> the door" type of situation, as many are trying to paint it.
>
> Should a Muslim have to sell me, a Christian, a soda in his convenience store? Sure.
>
> Should a Muslim be forced by law to decorate the words "Jesus is Lord" on [insert
> product they make] for my Christian party or event? I say no way.

Well I mean yeah, common sense would agree with you. However we seem to have lost that as a society for fear of offending someone, somewhere.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#26)
No, what we do as a society is set out to put others in a situation that will catch them with their pants down. This "gotcha" crap has to stop. If these butt-holes really wanted a cake they could have went to Dairy Queen and got a nice ice cream cake.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#27)
Legally this is a slippery slope. If we allow social and business decisions to be made based off of religious belief where does it stop? Assuming you guys have read at least the Bible- you should understand what the potential is. Now apply that to other religious scriptures.

It seems irresponsible to set a precedent of this nature.

Another aspect of the argument is the definition and meaning of marriage. The Bible doesn't get to define something that existed long before and the state has a separate legal definition as well That separation has always been artificial, clearly.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#28)
I think we can leave the Christian aspect out of it entirely. Seems like regardless of why this person feels this way, it should be his right.
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#29)
ya if the court goes narrow either way, there will be more cases brought but the court can decline.
if broad ruling for cake guy, you have to go legislative. if the gay guys, less legislative options because of religious language already in.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#30)
Yeah. But as a person arguing for the law of the land those aspects cannot be ignored. Their job is not to decide who is "right" but who's argument is more compatible with past, present and desired law.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
7-Dec-2017(#31)
Feeb wrote:
> Yeah. But as a person arguing for the law of the land those aspects cannot be ignored.
> Their job is not to decide who is "right" but who's argument is more compatible with
> past, present and desired law.

This is a very good point.

For me it's a freedom of speech and religion issue. They could have bought any cake in the shop, but you can't FORCE someone to use their artistic skill when it's against their religion or their free speech.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#32)
I would agree if they weren't offering a service to the public. Without a religious grounds to not provide the service it would be pure prejudice.

Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion for the public if desired.

Both sides are obviously valid arguments.

Honestly because of the fact that there are other public outlets for the product they wanted I'd rule against them. I'd also consider requiring some sort of advertising for businesses that intend to selectively serve.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#33)
Feeb wrote:
> I would agree if they weren't offering a service to the public. Without a religious
> grounds to not provide the service it would be pure prejudice.

I see what you're saying, but again, I think there is an important distinction here. They're not "denying service" to them in the sense that much of the public trying to convey. They're trying to equate this to shops not allowing black people inside. That's not what this is. This guy would sell anything to anybody. It's a specific theme or message he won't do, and that only, as it is in conflict with his convictions.

> Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion for the public if desired.

I agree with this statement in a vacuum. However, in this situation I don't believe it to be directly relevant. It's not like this guy is preaching, trying to convince anyone to believe what he does, or anything else.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
* 7-Dec-2017(#34)
Feeb wrote:
> I would agree if they weren't offering a service to the public. Without a religious
> grounds to not provide the service it would be pure prejudice.
>
> Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion for the public if desired.
>
>
> Both sides are obviously valid arguments.
>
> Honestly because of the fact that there are other public outlets for the product
> they wanted I'd rule against them. I'd also consider requiring some sort of advertising
> for businesses that intend to selectively serve.

Could you go into a Muslin restaurant and demand they serve you bacon? Would you be OK with someone walking into a kosher Jewish deli and demanding they put a piece of cheese on a piece of meat for you?

The fact is, there are other bakeries, and other premade cakes in that bakery. His religion and his beliefs should trump someone forcing him to use his artistic skills for a gay wedding.

Freedom of religion is laid out as follows in the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So Congress cannot make a law establishing a religion. Ok we're good there. Or prohibiting the free exercise the thereof...

Now it doesn't say anything about you walking INTO someone else's business and being "protected" from their religion, it says you cannot prevent THEM from expressing theirs. Big difference here.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#35)
I agree with all of that.

I guess seeing from the other side would be important- civil rights are earned through seemingly minor things like this.

Plus there is already precedent for what a public business can and cannot do.

I don't think denying a wedding cake constitutes a practice of religion. There may be a bible verse that preaches just that behavior- but we should not be regressing to religious scripture to legislate
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
* 7-Dec-2017(#36)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
>>
>> That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.
>
> Serious question. Say you were an artist, and I could hire you to create some art
> for me. I come into your shop and say I want you to paint me a picture of Trump that
> says "Trump is the greatest president in history". You obviously disagree with that.
> Do you feel that you should be required by law to make this for me?
>You don't think you should have the option to say no thanks, I'd rather not spend my time on something I disagree with?

If you want to pay me what I'd charge to create a 50 foot statue of a warrior version of Donald Trump with an American flag in one hand, an flaming sword in the other and the body of Al-Bagdadi (however you spell that ISIS leader's name) tied by rope and dragging behind him then I will take your money and make the best statue of that cheeto colored moron I can. I'll even give him a 6 pack and a full head of hair if you want.

Why? Because I am not a dumba$$ and recognize that if someone pays me to provide a service I don't automatically endorse any bull$hit idea they dream up. Unless you're walking into my store drunk, start destroying more property or have your prick hanging out I'll be more than happy to sell or create whatever you want.

Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#37)
yankees7448 wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> yankees7448 wrote:
> |>> Dustin wrote:
>> |>> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
> |>>
> |>> That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.
>>
>> Serious question. Say you were an artist, and I could hire you to create some
> art
>> for me. I come into your shop and say I want you to paint me a picture of Trump
> that
>> says "Trump is the greatest president in history". You obviously disagree with
> that.
>> Do you feel that you should be required by law to make this for me?
> |>You don't think you should have the option to say no thanks, I'd rather not spend
> my time on something I disagree with?
>
> If you want to pay me what I'd charge to create a 50 foot statue of a warrior version
> of Donald Trump with an American flag in one hand, an flaming sword in the other
> and the body of Al-Bagdadi (however you spell that ISIS leader's name) tied by rope
> and dragging behind him then I will take your money and make the best statue of that
> cheeto colored moron I can. I'll even give him a 6 pack and a full head of hair if
> you want.
>
> Why? Because I am not a dumba$$ and recognize that if someone pays me to provide
> a service I don't automatically endorse any bull$hit idea they dream up. Unless you're
> walking into my store drunk, start destroying more property or have your prick hanging
> out I'll be more than happy to sell or create whatever you want.
>
>

You didn't come close to answering the question.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#38)
Upon reading the cake man's complaint- he's using the idea that marriage is a "significant religious" event- that makes it even touchier, for the reasons we already discussed.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#39)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> |>> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
>> |>>
>> |>> That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.
> |>>
> |>> Serious question. Say you were an artist, and I could hire you to create some
>> art
> |>> for me. I come into your shop and say I want you to paint me a picture of Trump
>> that
> |>> says "Trump is the greatest president in history". You obviously disagree with
>> that.
> |>> Do you feel that you should be required by law to make this for me?
>> |>You don't think you should have the option to say no thanks, I'd rather not
> spend
>> my time on something I disagree with?
>>
>> If you want to pay me what I'd charge to create a 50 foot statue of a warrior
> version
>> of Donald Trump with an American flag in one hand, an flaming sword in the other
>> and the body of Al-Bagdadi (however you spell that ISIS leader's name) tied by
> rope
>> and dragging behind him then I will take your money and make the best statue of
> that
>> cheeto colored moron I can. I'll even give him a 6 pack and a full head of hair
> if
>> you want.
>>
>> Why? Because I am not a dumba$$ and recognize that if someone pays me to provide
>> a service I don't automatically endorse any bull$hit idea they dream up. Unless
> you're
>> walking into my store drunk, start destroying more property or have your prick
> hanging
>> out I'll be more than happy to sell or create whatever you want.
>>
>>
>
> You didn't come close to answering the question.

Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own personal beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#40)
Back to my question from above:

Should a Muslim be forced by law to decorate the words "Jesus is Lord" on [insert product they make] for my Christian party or event?
Should a gay baker be forced by law to decorate a cake with "Marriage: a man and a woman" on it?
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#41)
yankees7448 wrote:

> Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own personal
> beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.

Totally agreed. Some would not let beliefs get in the way. Others have convictions, and would call what you just described integrity. Not everyone is the same.

You wouldn't do what Jack Phillips did. Ok, all good.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#42)
yankees7448 wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> yankees7448 wrote:
>>
>> You didn't come close to answering the question.
>
> Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own personal
> beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.

Yet it was a legit question, nonetheless. Would you like to answer it?
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#43)
Scots wrote:
> Back to my question from above:
>
> Should a Muslim be forced by law to decorate the words "Jesus is Lord" on [insert
> product they make] for my Christian party or event?
> Should a gay baker be forced by law to decorate a cake with "Marriage: a man and
> a woman" on it?

Does the item itself corrupt his belief in this case? As in if it wasn't at a gay wedding would it still be a gay wedding cake? If that's what's happening you're correct.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#44)
A baker like this does custom projects. This would have been a case specifically for the wedding. It's not like they said, "Hey that one in the case looks nice, we'll take that one to use for our wedding." They asked him to design and create a cake that was specifically for their ceremony.

Here's how Phillips put it:

"What I didn't say was that I wouldn't sell them a cake.
I'm happy to sell a cake to anyone, whatever his or her sexual identity. People should be free to make their own moral choices. I don't have to agree with them.
Designing a wedding cake is a very different thing from, say, baking a brownie. When people commission such a cake, they're requesting something that's designed to express something about the event and about the couple.
What I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar, but a message tailored to a specific couple and a specific event -- a message telling all who see it that this event is a wedding and that it is an occasion for celebration.
In this case, I couldn't. What a cake celebrating this event would communicate was a message that contradicts my deepest religious convictions, and as an artist, that's just not something I'm able to do, so I politely declined.
But this wasn't just a business decision. More than anything else, it was a reflection of my commitment to my faith. My religious convictions on this are grounded in the biblical teaching that God designed marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
Obviously, not everyone shares those convictions. I don't expect them to. Each of us makes our own choices; each of us decides how closely we will hold to, defend and live out those choices.
The two men who came into my shop that day were living out their beliefs. All I did was attempt to live out mine. I respect their right to choose and hoped they would respect mine."
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#45)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> |>> I wouldn't expect anything less from you buddy.
>> |>>
>> |>> That's ok. I always expect less and less from Trump chumps.
> |>>
> |>> Serious question. Say you were an artist, and I could hire you to create some
>> art
> |>> for me. I come into your shop and say I want you to paint me a picture of Trump
>> that
> |>> says "Trump is the greatest president in history". You obviously disagree with
>> that.
> |>> Do you feel that you should be required by law to make this for me?
>> |>You don't think you should have the option to say no thanks, I'd rather not
> spend
>> my time on something I disagree with?
>>
>> If you want to pay me what I'd charge to create a 50 foot statue of a warrior
> version
>> of Donald Trump with an American flag in one hand, an flaming sword in the other
>> and the body of Al-Bagdadi (however you spell that ISIS leader's name) tied by
> rope
>> and dragging behind him then I will take your money and make the best statue of
> that
>> cheeto colored moron I can. I'll even give him a 6 pack and a full head of hair
> if
>> you want.
>>
>> Why? Because I am not a dumba$$ and recognize that if someone pays me to provide
>> a service I don't automatically endorse any bull$hit idea they dream up. Unless
> you're
>> walking into my store drunk, start destroying more property or have your prick
> hanging
>> out I'll be more than happy to sell or create whatever you want.
>>
>>
>
> You didn't come close to answering the question.

And you know what. Yes. I think there should be laws forcing you to provide the service. You are a business that is open to the public. Serve all the public equally or get out of business. Unless the person is breaking the law or behaving in a disrepectful manner or something else along those lines then I should be obligated to serve them. If they are gay then let them buy stuff. As long as they don't force something up my pooper it isn't my problem.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#46)
Scots wrote:
> Back to my question from above:
>
> Should a Muslim be forced by law to decorate the words "Jesus is Lord" on [insert
> product they make] for my Christian party or event?
> Should a gay baker be forced by law to decorate a cake with "Marriage: a man and
> a woman" on it?

Yes.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#47)
Scots wrote:
> A baker like this does custom projects. This would have been a case specifically
> for the wedding. It's not like they said, "Hey that one in the case looks nice, we'll
> take that one to use for our wedding." They asked him to design and create a cake
> that was specifically for their ceremony.
>
> Here's how Phillips put it:
>
> "What I didn't say was that I wouldn't sell them a cake.
> I'm happy to sell a cake to anyone, whatever his or her sexual identity. People should
> be free to make their own moral choices. I don't have to agree with them.
> Designing a wedding cake is a very different thing from, say, baking a brownie. When
> people commission such a cake, they're requesting something that's designed to express
> something about the event and about the couple.
> What I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar, but a message tailored to a
> specific couple and a specific event -- a message telling all who see it that this
> event is a wedding and that it is an occasion for celebration.
> In this case, I couldn't. What a cake celebrating this event would communicate was
> a message that contradicts my deepest religious convictions, and as an artist, that's
> just not something I'm able to do, so I politely declined.
> But this wasn't just a business decision. More than anything else, it was a reflection
> of my commitment to my faith. My religious convictions on this are grounded in the
> biblical teaching that God designed marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
> Obviously, not everyone shares those convictions. I don't expect them to. Each of
> us makes our own choices; each of us decides how closely we will hold to, defend
> and live out those choices.
> The two men who came into my shop that day were living out their beliefs. All I did
> was attempt to live out mine. I respect their right to choose and hoped they would
> respect mine."

That baker is an a-hole.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#48)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
> |>>
> |>> You didn't come close to answering the question.
>>
>> Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own personal
>> beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.
>
> Yet it was a legit question, nonetheless. Would you like to answer it?

Yes. There absolutely should be a law forcing you or me to provide the service.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#49)
yankees7448 wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> yankees7448 wrote:
> |>> Dustin wrote:
>> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>>
>> |>> You didn't come close to answering the question.
> |>>
> |>> Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own personal
> |>> beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.
>>
>> Yet it was a legit question, nonetheless. Would you like to answer it?
>
> Yes. There absolutely should be a law forcing you or me to provide the service.

lol, well at least you're honest. Ridiculously misguided, but honest. Can't ask for much more than that. I 100% disagree with you, but that's no surprise.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#50)
Scots wrote:
> A baker like this does custom projects. This would have been a case specifically
> for the wedding. It's not like they said, "Hey that one in the case looks nice, we'll
> take that one to use for our wedding." They asked him to design and create a cake
> that was specifically for their ceremony.
>
> Here's how Phillips put it:
>
> "What I didn't say was that I wouldn't sell them a cake.
> I'm happy to sell a cake to anyone, whatever his or her sexual identity. People should
> be free to make their own moral choices. I don't have to agree with them.
> Designing a wedding cake is a very different thing from, say, baking a brownie. When
> people commission such a cake, they're requesting something that's designed to express
> something about the event and about the couple.
> What I design is not just a tower of flour and sugar, but a message tailored to a
> specific couple and a specific event -- a message telling all who see it that this
> event is a wedding and that it is an occasion for celebration.
> In this case, I couldn't. What a cake celebrating this event would communicate was
> a message that contradicts my deepest religious convictions, and as an artist, that's
> just not something I'm able to do, so I politely declined.
> But this wasn't just a business decision. More than anything else, it was a reflection
> of my commitment to my faith. My religious convictions on this are grounded in the
> biblical teaching that God designed marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
> Obviously, not everyone shares those convictions. I don't expect them to. Each of
> us makes our own choices; each of us decides how closely we will hold to, defend
> and live out those choices.
> The two men who came into my shop that day were living out their beliefs. All I did
> was attempt to live out mine. I respect their right to choose and hoped they would
> respect mine."

So your example is bad then.

The explanation of the cake maker himself is that he makes his art fit the event and he COULD not in this case. Basically that his art would be bad. He then says because he has a religious belief. I'd say clearly coached on the angle but I respect his argument.

So the case we are arguing now is: if an artist is not good / experienced enough to properly glorify a piece of art he should not have to be commissioned.

Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#51)
Why is it a bad example? In all of these cases, the individual would be asked to create something that either says or represents something that contradicts their convictions.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#52)
Sorry. Added this after

So the case we are arguing now is: if an artist is not good / experienced enough to properly glorify a piece of art he should not have to be commissioned.

Because those examples are clearly offensive. Not the same as not being able to provide art for a cake that may not outwardly offend.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#53)
I'm sure there's more to this whole thing one way or another. The baker was targeted to make a stink or the gay couple was triggered by something else.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#54)
He should have just made the cake and done a terrible job on purpose. Fudge them.

Seriously though, why would you even want someone to make something for you if you knew they didn't want to? Oh that's right, because you want to be a victim and raise a big stink about your hurt feelings.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#55)
Their story is that their wedding planner highly recommended Phillips. They walked in asked about the cake at which point Phillips came in asked who it was for- Then told them he would not do a same sex marriage.

They got pissed and called the CLU or whoever.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-re...

The union seemed to be the ones urging the suit.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#56)
Feeb wrote:
> Sorry. Added this after
>
> So the case we are arguing now is: if an artist is not good / experienced enough
> to properly glorify a piece of art he should not have to be commissioned.

I don't believe that's what's being argued at all. His skill or experience had absolutely nothing to do with this. This was a matter of principle, not ability.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#57)
Scots wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>> Sorry. Added this after
>>
>> So the case we are arguing now is: if an artist is not good / experienced enough
>> to properly glorify a piece of art he should not have to be commissioned.
>
> I don't believe that's what's being argued at all. His skill or experience had absolutely
> nothing to do with this. This was a matter of principle, not ability.

That's what he is trying to argue. 1) That his expression would not be valid and 2) he did not want to do it anyway.

Else he would clearly say it was about the religion. He needs it to be about the cake and the art. The reason is because it is already illegal to do it the other way.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#58)
The more I read on this the more I think it's a shakedown. Looks like this baker had a known reputation as a Christian and even refused Halloween or bachelor parties etc (He did make some cakes for Catholics... but let's not get into the obvious hypocrisy there.)

These guys were offered any pre made wedding cake in the store. They refused.

They probably targeted him.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#59)
Well I think we've known they targeted him from the beginning.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#60)
Dustin wrote:
> He should have just made the cake and done a terrible job on purpose. Fudge them.
>
> Seriously though, why would you even want someone to make something for you if you
> knew they didn't want to? Oh that's right, because you want to be a victim and raise
> a big stink about your hurt feelings.

The more important question is why anyone's personal feelings have to get involved at all. Its a business transaction. You don't like gay marriage. Don't marry another man. Period of story.
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#61)
Scots wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>> Sorry. Added this after
>>
>> So the case we are arguing now is: if an artist is not good / experienced enough
>> to properly glorify a piece of art he should not have to be commissioned.
>
> I don't believe that's what's being argued at all. His skill or experience had absolutely
> nothing to do with this. This was a matter of principle, not ability.

Its a matter of the baker being a snowflake. Do your job or close your business. His job is to bake cakes not judge people's beliefs.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#62)
Yes, clearly the baker would be the snowflake in this situation. lol
yankees7448
Bronze Good Trader
7-Dec-2017(#63)
Dustin wrote:
> yankees7448 wrote:
>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
>> |>> Dustin wrote:
> |>> |>> yankees7448 wrote:
> |>> |>>
> |>> |>> You didn't come close to answering the question.
>> |>>
>> |>> Your question presupposes that I am a bad businessman who would let my own
> personal
>> |>> beliefs limit my ability to make money. I do not accept that.
> |>>
> |>> Yet it was a legit question, nonetheless. Would you like to answer it?
>>
>> Yes. There absolutely should be a law forcing you or me to provide the service.
>
>
> lol, well at least you're honest. Ridiculously misguided, but honest. Can't ask for
> much more than that. I 100% disagree with you, but that's no surprise.

Nothing misguided about expecting someone to do the job they are being paid to do. You provide a service to the public then you service the public.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#64)
He is not a public servant he is a private business owner. Again, completely misguided. You seem to be willfully ignorant of this situation and are only really hearing what you want to hear.
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (7 minutes ago)
7-Dec-2017(#65)
Furthermore, having convictions and sticking to them does not make you a snowflake. Getting bent out of shape at the smallest perception of a slight, does. Who's the snowflake in this situation again?
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#66)
You'd just like to see one of these Christian folks in a situation like this show an act of kindness and make the cake. Brotherhood and grace- and maybe your message is louder. It's not a sin to make a cake used in a gay wedding.

If I was a Christian cake man I'd put a big sign on my shop "Gay Cakes Here!"
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
7-Dec-2017(#67)
Feeb wrote:
> You'd just like to see one of these Christian folks in a situation like this show
> an act of kindness and make the cake. Brotherhood and grace- and maybe your message
> is louder. It's not a sin to make a cake used in a gay wedding.
>
> If I was a Christian cake man I'd put a big sign on my shop "Gay Cakes Here!"

I don't necessarily disagree with that.

I am not Christian and I don't care where you put your dick, but these religious rights have to be protected per the constitution. I think not eating pork or having a beer is stupid too, but again, that's what Muslims are about so be it...
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#68)
I'm really having trouble seeing how this would ever be contrary to the teachings of his religion. It's not a sin. Would Jesus do it? The church will have to issue a statement on gay cakes. They'll need to name a special day like the "Gaycakesion" and reactively make it fit into the dogma.

I'd love to be one of their writers.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
7-Dec-2017(#69)
Feeb wrote:
> I'm really having trouble seeing how this would ever be contrary to the teachings
> of his religion. It's not a sin. Would Jesus do it? The church will have to issue
> a statement on gay cakes. They'll need to name a special day like the "Gaycakesion"
> and reactively make it fit into the dogma.
>
> I'd love to be one of their writers.

It doesn't matter if you or I think it should be against his religion, according to him it is, so we should just respect it, whether or not we find it logical.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#70)
Yes but he doesn't get to decide the tenets of his religion either. This is not an established thing in Christendom.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#71)
You're intentionally reducing it to the object to make it sound absurd. Of course "gay cakes" are not specified to be against his religion. It's the specific ceremony that is against his convictions. He believes practicing homosexuality is a sin. And a gay marriage ceremony is explicitly a celebration of just that.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 7-Dec-2017(#72)
Gay cakes is just a generic term I'm using to adumbrate the situation. Anyone that takes that as literal is not paying attention to this conversation.

The making of the gay cake for the gay wedding is not a hellfire offense.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#73)
I'm paying attention. Some aren't.

Baking a cake specifically for the marriage ceremony is in direct conflict with his convictions as a Christian. It's not more complicated than that.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#74)
So he just doesn't understand Christianity like most Christians.

Seriously hope this sets no precedent except cakes don't make you gay butt sex does.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#75)
You're wrong on that. Most Christians would say that practicing homosexuality is a sin. Some more vocal denominations do not, but most do.

In any case, that doesn't make any difference here.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
7-Dec-2017(#76)
Feeb wrote:
> So he just doesn't understand Christianity like most Christians.
>
> Seriously hope this sets no precedent except cakes don't make you gay butt sex does.
>

Man I don't even know what we're talking about now, lol. Most Christians would agree that gay stuff is a sin. So would Muslims, in fact they murder gay people in some of those countries.

So if gay is sin, then baking a cake for a gay wedding would violate his religion. Or maybe we just got to the trolling part of thread... Hard to tell sometimes.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#77)
Not trolling. Homosexuality is considered sinful by most yes. It should be. The Bible clearly states that it is immoral. But why is this your response to my statement that he is not sinning by making a cake for these guys?

Totally off track. If he's saying he has a right based off of his religion then the immediate act he is referencing should have an afffect on him in a religious way. It does not. There is no rule saying he did anything wrong. He is choosing to do something based off of a bad interpretation of the "rules."

Christianity teaches you to love your neighbors and not judge him.

It's easy for me to understand both sides of this argument but both sides are a stretch. We can't just hide behind religion every time we want to be an exception or a snowflake.

Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#78)
Mormons did make a statement on gay cakes. They support the choice either way.
Scots
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#79)
Feeb wrote:
> Not trolling. Homosexuality is considered sinful by most yes. It should be. The
> Bible clearly states that it is immoral. But why is this your response to my statement
> that he is not sinning by making a cake for these guys?
>
> Totally off track. If he's saying he has a right based off of his religion then the
> immediate act he is referencing should have an afffect on him in a religious way.
> It does not. There is no rule saying he did anything wrong. He is choosing to do
> something based off of a bad interpretation of the "rules."

This is simply bad logic. Using this thought process, a lounge singer should entertain for a KKK party. You believe the white supremacy they are celebrating is wrong, yes, but the physical act of singing at a piano does not have any effect on you in a moral way, right?
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
7-Dec-2017(#80)
That's another nice false analogy. In a legal sense it has been made clear that I believe there is a right to deny service. Your example is a good one based in reality with empirical support which just happens to involve a hate group.

We were discussing how an argument of "I can't because religion" should be based around an actual religious tenet. How far can we let extrapolations and feeling drive our legal system?

It's pretty simple to understand where I'm coming from on that. Unless you just don't want to.

Topic   Masterpiece Cake Shop