Politics

Topic   Medical controversy discussion

ft763
Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 1 Review Australia
* 27-Aug(#1)
So this topic will be rather sensitive. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!

Here we'll talk about a few controversial matters in med. So let's begin...

- Is abortion legal before a certain date? Some claim the embryo is not legally considered a human before the second trimester (I might be wrong here, correct me if I am)
- What about IVF and genetic engineering? Is that allowed too?
- Say somebody is braindead and hooked up to life support. Is it legal to euthanise the guy and unplug the machine, or is this also considered murder? Theoretically it would be easier NOT to waste handsome sums of money trying to keep him alive and turn off the entire life support altogether.





BucketofJustice
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27-Aug(#2)
I think the mother-to-be should have final say on an abortion. There's always caveats, so I'm painting a broad stroke here and I know that but it shouldn't be decided by people outside he specific situation.

Genetic engineering is being done, so I'm assuming someone allowed it.

Ask the family of the one on life support. Or if the person has a standing order, look at what he/she wants.
tonymack21
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28-Aug(#3)
I think that unless the baby is going to kill the mother the father definitely gets a say so, if she doesn't want it and he does he should be able to raise his child. its not just hers.

there are too many potentially beneficial elements to GE, I think they should definitely be looked into.

the family typically would make this decision, or if they have a legal order or power of attorney that would then take effect. my family knows that if I am brain dead with no hope to let me go, my ex wife and I talked about that back when we were married, we both were of the mind we didn't want to lay on a machine if there was no chance we were coming back from it

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Osiris
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28-Aug(#4)
as soon as we can transplant the baby inside men after conception, they are welcome and encouraged to enjoy gestation!
tonymack21
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* 28-Aug(#5)
It's not really a question of that. It takes two to fudge.. and if you aren't trying not to have a baby very deliberately and specificly. Then you are trying to have a baby. That's the purpose of sex. That child is a person. It doesn't "belong" to the mother. Without the father..there is no baby either. If the father wants to raise it that should be cut and dry. She didn't want to be pregnant ? Stop fudging.

There isn't enough education I think among young people. I don't think they understand what little it takes to get pregnant and what it really means

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ft763
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* 28-Aug(#6)
Osiris wrote:
> as soon as we can transplant the baby inside men after conception, they are welcome
> and encouraged to enjoy gestation!

Reminds me of that movie 'Junior'.
Dustin
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29-Aug(#7)
Osiris wrote:
> as soon as we can transplant the baby inside men after conception, they are welcome
> and encouraged to enjoy gestation!

So then men should be off the hook financially should the mother decide to keep it even if the man doesn't want it. Correct?
Osiris
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29-Aug(#8)
What?
Dustin
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* 29-Aug(#9)
Osiris wrote:
> What?

You were basically saying since the man can't carry it, he doesn't get a say. So then if he doesn't get a say, he shouldn't be financially liable. Just tossing some logic into the mix.

I'm not advocating for or against anything. I don't know how I feel about certain situations. I'm just trying to approach it logically.
Osiris
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* 29-Aug(#10)
So if the male had a legal standing to force continued pregnancy, then he also would have the legal standing to compel termination by declaring no financial responsibility during pregnancy or after birth?

You would not separate and make distinct the physical and emotional demands of pregnancy undergone by one of the parties from financial support during pregnancy and after birth?
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#11)
I think the distinction should always be that the mother and father are equal. as a parent my feelings are beyond strong on this. my children live with me as the primary parent. had their mother not wanted them I would have gladly taken them without her, and any good father should have that option.

I think what dustin is asking is would you be ok with it being a two way street, if the father has no say in his childs right to live does he also have equal right to say I didn't want the pregnancy if you keep it im not responsible in any way. I don't advocate either of these in any way, if you have a child both parties should be equally responsible. our society, this hook up culture we live in, has devalued children and parenting and its sad. I know so many children growing up without one of their parents, I know children who's fathers don't even know they exist, its not good for the kids and not good for our society as the children are its future, a disproportionate number are growing up in single parent homes and so many studies have shown that having both parents as long as they are stable human beings is much healthier and better for them.



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Osiris
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29-Aug(#12)
The difficulty with equalizing the situation is that only ONE of the parties responsible for the pregnancy goes thru 9 months of physical, emotional and physiological changes, and the shall we say, challenging, process of giving birth.
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#13)
I supported my wife through every moment of it, not all men are uninvolved and oblivious and don't face any challenges associated, albeit different. and none of that changes the fact that child is his too. it simply can not be only her choice if law and morality says the father is also responsible for the child, which both parents absolutely should be. I think more about what pregnancy is and what it does to a person should be in sex education. we are fortunate that it was designed to be pleasurable, but its main purpose is still procreation, and I don't think thats being taught enough and its not how our society and young people are looking it.

giving birth was a breeze for her, she was talking about what she wanted to eat when it was over, she was luckier than most I will give you that though lol.

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Osiris
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* 29-Aug(#14)
you are making an argument that the emotional support provided by the man is equal to all the changes experienced by a woman during the process of pregnancy and childbirth?
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#15)
isn't equality and no distinction between men and women the goal?

im not saying its the same, I am all about men and women being different but equal. I don't think men and women are the same, they weren't designed to be, they were made to be two halves of one whole. but their rights as human beings should be the same.

and even so...when both parties were having fun they knew the risks of pregnancy and she didn't care then, doesn't give her the right to kill my baby just because she doesn't want it if I do.

I am not completely and totally anti abortion. there are cases.. its killing the mother, the baby doesn't have all its organs, its braindead, the mother was raped, there are cases, but in a consensual act where a child is conceived and the father wants to raise it she cant just kill it.


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Dustin
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29-Aug(#16)
Children are so inconvenient!
tonymack21
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29-Aug(#17)
Dustin wrote:
> Children are so inconvenient!

lol, I wouldn't take anything for mine but you couldn't give me another :p


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Osiris
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29-Aug(#18)
So you are saying there is a male equivalent experience to the female process of pregnancy and childbirth?
tonymack21
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29-Aug(#19)
If the woman can hold the man responsible for the child why can't the man do the same? The experience irrelevant in this case

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King_link
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29-Aug(#20)
I think abortion should be mandatory. We need those sweet sweet stem cells.
Dustin
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29-Aug(#21)
Osiris wrote:
> So you are saying there is a male equivalent experience to the female process of
> pregnancy and childbirth?

I had a kidney stone once. I've heard that's somewhat comparable.
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#22)
True. We die because the cells in our body break down and our bodies fail. With new infusions we could be immortal.

Cue the Highlander theme

And ya Dustin or getting kicked in the balls.. after a baby many women want more. You don't hear most guys asking to get kicked in the junk.

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Karaiya
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29-Aug(#23)
Wait! Am I understanding this correctly? Are we making an argument that women don't have a financial responsibility to children because that is not a true statement even in cases in which the father has custody. My ex is legally required to pay me child support.

I think its important that a father has a say in whether or not to raise a child but the vasy majority if men I promise you would rather the woman get an abortion. Unless this is a monogamous marital relationship you rarely see cases in which a man protests the abortion of an unplanned pregnancy. We are arguing a non issue. We are speculating what is a non issue because men as a whole don't give crap. If you do, good on you. However, if your arguing men should have an "equal" say it is from a stance that "I am a man, and as such I have a right to impose my beliefs on this woman". As much as you'd like to argue that its just the truth. Women arent getting abortions to throw the middle finger at the patriarchy in fact, women for the most part want to procreate. We just shouldnt have the government telling them they can't terminate unplanned pregnancies.
Dustin
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29-Aug(#24)
We were only discussing things from a logic standpoint. Most liberals are probably confused.

wink
ninesalone
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29-Aug(#25)
Karaiya wrote:
>because men as a whole don't give crap.

What a horrible thing to say/believe.

tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#26)
there is a huge movement out there, the fathers rights movement, fighting everyday to be in their childrens lives when the mothers are alienators and just plain wrong. yes, there are many who would say that in an unplanned hook up to have the abortion, but shouldn't you rightfully get the option? both sides know the risks of hooking up, responsibility has to be shared.

definitely not saying women don't have a financial responsibility, I am my kids primary residence too and their mom helps. what we were getting at is in a culture and society where a woman can hold a man responsible even when he doesn't want to be, why shouldn't a man who wants to be have a right to hold the woman responsible If she doesn't want to be? its not a two way street and it should be.

you know me and you know I am not saying its I am a man and you are a woman now listen here b.

there really is a huge movement out there of us fighting for equal parenting rights, its growing every year and has lawyers aligned with it and state level cells sprouting up all the time. I know from my own experiences there is nothing secondary about the father of a child. I know many situations where the father is the better or only parent too, its not always mom good dad bad, but I know that's not what is being said here.

I also agree its not to throw the finger to anyone, I am sure its a very hard decision, maybe the mom cant take care of it, maybe the guy took off, I know it happens. I guess what im saying is its not a one size fits all, but one parent of a child shouldn't be making the decision for both parents when both are involved and one of them wants the baby can legitimately raise it in a good and healthy home.

also agree its not up to the government it should be up to the parents, both of them if they both want a say in it.


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Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
29-Aug(#27)
Are we talking about the distinction of a fathers rights in divorce or abortion? Tbese are two different issues.
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#28)
just a fathers position and a fathers perceived importance in general, and mostly the rights in terms of abortion, but in a way they could be considered related In the sense of perceived importance. the idea that fathers are lesser is evil.

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Karaiya
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29-Aug(#29)
Also, Nines please, get over yourself.
Karaiya
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29-Aug(#30)
Fathers are important however, and throughout society fathers are more than often the perpetuators of abuse or the deadbeats. This is a real thing. Tony I think your right I went through a painfil divorce and I now have custody of my kids. Fathers can be great but I am not in anyway in the belief that men as fathers haven't failed the mothers in the fair share of raisong children.
tonymack21
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* 29-Aug(#31)
im not saying there aren't a lot of bad ones, but I definitely know a lot of good ones too. amazing ones at that. I think assuming the male is bad and shouldn't be considered equal until a reason to be considered otherwise is provided is a bad road :/

and I feel you on the painful divorce, that was the worst year of my life, divorce, grandma whom I was very close too died right in the middle of it. that was 9 years ago thankfully we are good friends now and co-parent super awesome. when the kids wanted to switch for a variety of reasons (not the least of which their stepdad is a jerk, they have kids together so mine were outsiders, so ya there are sorry guys out there) their mom was kinda emotional but we worked it out and came up with something that works for everyone. I realize not everyone can do that, but we are blessed to be able to.

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ninesalone
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* 29-Aug(#32)
tonymack21 wrote:
> just a fathers position and a fathers perceived importance in general, and mostly
> the rights in terms of abortion, but in a way they could be considered related In
> the sense of perceived importance. the idea that fathers are lesser is evil.
>

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/

Highly recommend this doc that came out recently. About a feminist who dives head first into the Men's Rights movement and actually talks to the men (and women) who make up these movements. She also interviews prominent feminists. Quite the transformation she undergoes. A lot of these stories have never been told. You can buy or rent on YT and some other places.
tonymack21
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29-Aug(#33)
ninesalone wrote:
> tonymack21 wrote:
>> just a fathers position and a fathers perceived importance in general, and mostly
>> the rights in terms of abortion, but in a way they could be considered related
> In
>> the sense of perceived importance. the idea that fathers are lesser is evil.
>>
>
>
> Highly recommend this doc that came out recently. About a feminist who dives head
> first into the Men's Rights movement and actually talks to the men who make up
> these movements. She also interviews prominent feminists. Quite the transformation
> she undergoes. A lot of these stories have never been told. You can buy or rent on
> YT and some other places.

yes ill have to check that out, ive seen a few of these kinds of things but don't think ive seen this one.


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Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
29-Aug(#34)
I'll watch it too. It does look interesting.
DiamondDave
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29-Aug(#35)
ninesalone wrote:
> tonymack21 wrote:
>> just a fathers position and a fathers perceived importance in general, and mostly
>> the rights in terms of abortion, but in a way they could be considered related
> In
>> the sense of perceived importance. the idea that fathers are lesser is evil.
>>
>
>
> Highly recommend this doc that came out recently. About a feminist who dives head
> first into the Men's Rights movement and actually talks to the men (and women)
> who make up these movements. She also interviews prominent feminists. Quite the transformation
> she undergoes. A lot of these stories have never been told. You can buy or rent on
> YT and some other places.

I've actually been meaning to check this out for some time now, ever since I heard she was taking unwarranted crap on television over simply making it.
ninesalone
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29-Aug(#36)
You guys won't be disappointed.
Osiris
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30-Aug(#37)
Dustin wrote:

> You were basically saying since the man can't carry it, he doesn't get a say. So
> then if he doesn't get a say, he shouldn't be financially liable. Just tossing some
> logic into the mix.
>
> I'm not advocating for or against anything. I don't know how I feel about certain
> situations. I'm just trying to approach it logically.

I like logic, so if the man wants the woman to terminate pregnancy, but the women does not, the argument is that the man should have no financial responsibility to the woman during pregnancy, or to the child after birth?
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
* 30-Aug(#38)
I think what he is saying that if a woman can get an abortion without the man being able to "have a say" which translates into legally force her her to bear child, than a man should be able to shirk responsibilities of parenting financially in cases of that they are not together and raise an actual birthed child.

If a chick can get an abortion than I should be able to be a deadbeat.
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
30-Aug(#39)
The man doesnt have any legal obligation to provide to the woman during pregnancy already.
Dustin
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30-Aug(#40)
Osiris wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>
>> You were basically saying since the man can't carry it, he doesn't get a say.
> So
>> then if he doesn't get a say, he shouldn't be financially liable. Just tossing
> some
>> logic into the mix.
>>
>> I'm not advocating for or against anything. I don't know how I feel about certain
>> situations. I'm just trying to approach it logically.
>
> I like logic, so if the man wants the woman to terminate pregnancy, but the women
> does not, the argument is that the man should have no financial responsibility to
> the woman during pregnancy, or to the child after birth?

You basically said since the man doesn't carry the baby, he has no say in the matter. So if he doesn't have a choice, then he shouldn't be financially liable for the next 18 years in something he had no control over. It seems simple. However, we all know that isn't the case. It's faulty logic.

I would never advocate for being a deadbeat. I think deadbeat dads are crapheads. In my life, I try and be the best father I can be. My daughter is my whole world.
Dustin
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30-Aug(#41)
People are quick to support "women's choice" but it's not really fair to both sides. I like fairness.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#42)
Osiris wrote:
> Karaiya wrote:
>> The man doesnt have any legal obligation to provide to the woman during pregnancy
>> already.
>
> this raises another interesting point though, if the man does NOT want the woman
> to terminate pregnancy, but the woman does, would there exist a financial obligation
> for the man during the pregnancy - loss of income, household help, additional medical
> expenses, other costs directly related to the condition?

if she cant afford it in most cases Medicaid will foot the bill 100% prenatal vitamins, doctor visits, delivery etc. it didn't cost anything to have our kids because we were young and I didn't make a lot of money, so an unmarried woman could surely get all that. but if not, I could see the logic in the man going in on the expenses but she would have to give up all rights since she wanted to terminate in the first place.

im with you @Dustin, that's what ive been saying, it should be a two way street, if she should be able to shirk then so should a male, but like you said, I don't advocate this, my kids are my world too and I would never neglect or not care for them. after the divorce which I didn't want in the first place I not only paid CS, carried insurance, but I still on top of that shouldered 100% of their extra curricular actitivites and sports, and bought more than half their clothes and shoes for 8 years. now they live with me and their mom doesn't pay CS, but we get along great and have our own system in place where she helps with expenses and such so its the same thing in the end.





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tonymack21
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30-Aug(#43)
Osiris wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> Osiris wrote:
> |>> Dustin wrote:




> -Reasonable to say that the man made his commitment during the sex act, rather than
> after knowing the consequences?

but so did she.... how is that not the same thing.

>
> -If the women in question requires public assistance during pregnancy and after birth,
> should we as a society require contributions from the father to offset these costs,
> no matter his view on termination?

I kind of addressed my thoughts in the last post, if she wants to terminate and he doesn't, there is logic in him contributing to a degree. but if they qualify for assistance in this case they likely would even if they were married. my ex wife and I had Medicaid and wic during pregnancy and after the first year of the births. we were young and unestablished. my view on that is since its temporary public assistance, and not years of leeching on the welfare system, that is a good thing and applicable if you just use it the time intended and aren't staying on it for years.

you pay for this stuff from the moment you start working til you die, why not get to use it for a year or two of your life. your tax money will forever fund it long before and long long long after you are done with it.

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Osiris
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30-Aug(#44)
tonymack21 wrote:

>> -Reasonable to say that the man made his commitment during the sex act, rather
> than
>> after knowing the consequences?
>
> but so did she.... how is that not the same thing.

It is the same thing at that time, but going back to the original point the consequences to the woman during the 9 months of pregnancy and delivery are entirely different than the consequences for the man. Very different conditions for the parties involved.

After birth, there is a more equal playing field for both parties to determine involvement.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#45)
I just cant get on board with that, their decisions and when commitment begins are no different. the consequences to either party aren't relevant to the matter of parental rights.

this is why I say equality is only something people want when they feel its a benefit, otherwise people will use anything they can if they feel its something they can make into a benefit

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Karaiya
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* 30-Aug(#46)
Dustin so are you arguing that a man should be able to force a woman to get an abortion and if she doesn't, not legally be required to pay child support? I guess that is what I am getting at here with this "fairness" thing. You're not giving the man a fair part you'd trying to ensure he has the upper hand. A male could essentially black mail his partner. Its literally something men commonly already do. Get an abortion, Im not going to help raise this baby.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#47)
im not saying I don't, im just saying her parental rights are no more or less than his and vice versa, at any point. the system is shifted to one side, and that isn't right. God gave the woman the short straw in the babymaking department, but that doesn't lessen the dad or his rights.

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tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#48)
Karaiya wrote:
> Dustin so are you arguing that a man should be able to force a woman to get an abortion
> and if she doesn't, not legally be required to pay child support? I guess that is
> what I am getting at here with this "fairness" thing. You're not giving the man
> a fair part you'd trying to ensure he has the upper hand. A mail could essentially
> black mail his partner. Its literally something men commonly already do. Get an
> abortion, Im not going to help raise this baby.


I think what he was getting at, and what I was saying, if a woman can have the right to kill the baby even if the dad wants it, then why shouldn't the man equally be able to legally withdraw responsibility? why does she get absolute say to kill it or hold him responsible when she has carte blanche to do whatever and he has no choice?

the problem is it becomes arguing the point like every situation is cookie cutter, but they are all different.

im not advocating a system where people should be able to shirk responsibility for kids, at all. too many kids are living in bad situations and sometimes horrible situations, its terrible. its cold and heartless to say, but some of them may have been better off had their parents decided on the abortion route, ..its not one size fits all. this is a really really really complicated issue that really has to be evaluated on a case by case basis, with many many factors being decided. the problem is laws are not written for such things, they have be sweeping in many cases and this isn't the kind of issue that is good for an overarching sweeping law.


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Osiris
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30-Aug(#49)
We can say the man can withdraw support, but I am not getting the vibe that folks here are really into that. Plus the question remains, what expenses do we as a society think we should bear in these cases?

The original point was that the woman must have final say under our current law to terminate or not based on what the physical, mental and emotional changes she will be subject to during pregnancy and childbirth. If men could assume that whole process, things be different.

What happens financially depending on that decision is a separate discussion on what is equitable.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#50)
right, but I am saying that's a pretty unequal law in a climate where the push is to have things equal. the family law system is incredibly corrupt and in need of reform. the consequences she will face during pregnancy and birth are something she took on when the committed the acts leading to the conception, just like the father committed to his side. if both parents are in agreement, its def their choice. the current law is biased and needs to be reformed. I am saying the current law is wrong.

I am not saying either side should be able to shirk responsibility, but if the mother and baby are perfectly healthy, and she doesn't want it, and he can be proven to be stable and fit to parent, it should not be her choice only, that's a one sided system from a two sided act. I get that as a woman its probably hard for you to look past the part that woman carries it, likewise I am talking from dad's side. but there is more to the story.

I am fine with Medicaid/wic, its something that is temporary in most cases, and a true need in many cases. a healthy start for baby means less medical expense hopefully for that person down the line that our tax dollars wont have to support.

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Karaiya
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* 30-Aug(#51)
And what happens financially would be litigated after childbirth. That would have meant there was not an abortion. No state requires any father to be financially or emotionally supportive during pregnancy.

Once the child is born both parents have legal rights and obligations to that child. We should argue those semantics as those vary state to state and can favor the mother in way that have sometimes been unfair to good fathers. Especially if it is an ugly situation where the mom is not playing nice. I think this is where you are at Tony I agree with you here.

However, that child is the mothers while she is preggo and while it inhabits her body she bears the responsibility, emotionally, and physically. Not only that she alsp carries the life risk as childbirth can also be fatal to the mother and child. There is not equal share with men and women during pregnancy as much as we want to think that as men, it isnt true.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#52)
Karaiya wrote:
> And what happens financially would be litigated after childbirth. That would have
> meant there was not an abortion. No state requires any father to be financially
> or emotionally supportive during pregnancy.
>
> Once the child is born both parents have legal rights and obligations to that child.
> We should argue those semantics as those vary state to state and can favor the mother
> in way that have sometimes been unfair to good fathers. Especially if it is an ugly
> situation where the mom is not playing nice. I think this is where you are at Tony
> I agree with you here.

yes definitely.

>
> However, that child is the mothers while she is preggo and while it inhabits her
> body she bears the responsibility, emotionally, and physically. Not only that she
> alsp carries the life risk as childbirth can also be fatal to the mother and child.
> There is not equal share with men and women during pregnancy as much as we want
> to think that as men, it isnt true.

I know you love your kids, as do I.. as a dad I know I could never feel they weren't just as much my children as their mothers, at any point from that peanut sonogram to now. however, these are you guys feelings, though my own differ. you know you're my boy, and I like Osiris too, that's why I don't post here much, I don't like getting tangled into hypotheticals with friends over such things. but I know we are all mature enough to not agree on everything and be cool, and I miss the days when most people were like that :/

women want to be different when its a benefit, but then cry at other times when things aren't equal, and often these benefits are to the disadvantage of men, and I definitely have a sore spot for the family law system with what we've been through.

there aren't perfect answers, but I know if their mom had decided to kill my kids without consent, id have done everything I could to stop it, and if she had done it anyway, it probably wouldn't have ended well


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Karaiya
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30-Aug(#53)
tonymack21 wrote:
> Karaiya wrote:
>> And what happens financially would be litigated after childbirth. That would
> have
>> meant there was not an abortion. No state requires any father to be financially
>> or emotionally supportive during pregnancy.
>>
>> Once the child is born both parents have legal rights and obligations to that
> child.
>> We should argue those semantics as those vary state to state and can favor the
> mother
>> in way that have sometimes been unfair to good fathers. Especially if it is an
> ugly
>> situation where the mom is not playing nice. I think this is where you are at
> Tony
>> I agree with you here.
>
> yes definitely.
>
>>
>> However, that child is the mothers while she is preggo and while it inhabits her
>> body she bears the responsibility, emotionally, and physically. Not only that
> she
>> alsp carries the life risk as childbirth can also be fatal to the mother and child.
>> There is not equal share with men and women during pregnancy as much as we want
>> to think that as men, it isnt true.
>
> I know you love your kids, as do I.. as a dad I know I could never feel they weren't
> just as much my children as their mothers, at any point from that peanut sonogram
> to now. however, these are you guys feelings, though my own differ. you know
> you're my boy, and I like Osiris too, that's why I don't post here much, I don't
> like getting tangled into hypotheticals with friends over such things. but I know
> we are all mature enough to not agree on everything and be cool, and I miss the days
> when most people were like that :/
>
> women want to be different when its a benefit, but then cry at other times when things
> aren't equal, and often these benefits are to the disadvantage of men, and I definitely
> have a sore spot for the family law system with what we've been through.
>
> there aren't perfect answers, but I know if their mom had decided to kill my kids
> without consent, id have done everything I could to stop it, and if she had done
> it anyway, it probably wouldn't have ended well
>
>
>

Thanks. Yeah I agree about family law its really kind of messed up at least it was in Florida.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#54)
Karaiya wrote:
> tonymack21 wrote:
>> Karaiya wrote:
> |>> And what happens financially would be litigated after childbirth. That would
>> have
> |>> meant there was not an abortion. No state requires any father to be financially
> |>> or emotionally supportive during pregnancy.
> |>>
> |>> Once the child is born both parents have legal rights and obligations to that
>> child.
> |>> We should argue those semantics as those vary state to state and can favor the
>> mother
> |>> in way that have sometimes been unfair to good fathers. Especially if it is
> an
>> ugly
> |>> situation where the mom is not playing nice. I think this is where you are at
>> Tony
> |>> I agree with you here.
>>
>> yes definitely.
>>
> |>>
> |>> However, that child is the mothers while she is preggo and while it inhabits
> her
> |>> body she bears the responsibility, emotionally, and physically. Not only that
>> she
> |>> alsp carries the life risk as childbirth can also be fatal to the mother and
> child.
> |>> There is not equal share with men and women during pregnancy as much as we want
> |>> to think that as men, it isnt true.
>>
>> I know you love your kids, as do I.. as a dad I know I could never feel they weren't
>> just as much my children as their mothers, at any point from that peanut sonogram
>> to now. however, these are you guys feelings, though my own differ. you know
>> you're my boy, and I like Osiris too, that's why I don't post here much, I don't
>> like getting tangled into hypotheticals with friends over such things. but I
> know
>> we are all mature enough to not agree on everything and be cool, and I miss the
> days
>> when most people were like that :/
>>
>> women want to be different when its a benefit, but then cry at other times when
> things
>> aren't equal, and often these benefits are to the disadvantage of men, and I definitely
>> have a sore spot for the family law system with what we've been through.
>>
>> there aren't perfect answers, but I know if their mom had decided to kill my kids
>> without consent, id have done everything I could to stop it, and if she had done
>> it anyway, it probably wouldn't have ended well
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. Yeah I agree about family law its really kind of messed up at least it was
> in Florida.


Texas isn't much better probably. Progress is being made slowly. I read about more victories for dads than i used too. More women are getting on board too..it's diffetent once they see their sons and grandchildren getting gamed by the system.

When I went to court to get the papers done for the kids to switch primary residence from their mom to me, which we have always had joint custody/rights anyway, the judge didn't ask questions she just signed it. She was once a notoriously pro mom judge..but they say family Court judges are appreciating more and more when the parents can work it out amongst themselves.

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Karaiya
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30-Aug(#55)
I had a discussion with my attorney about my spouse and I agreeing to having me have the children live with me and the response was that was unorthodox and the Judge might want to review that even if your wife agrees in writing. That gave me the inidication the courts in Florida were more inclined to award the mother custody. That being said, I am also in the service so she did mention that was part of the reason why. I felt and my ex felt I was financially better prepared to provide for them until she finished school and had a more stable income. For some reason though it seemed the court wanted to argue with two amicable parents on what was best for their children likely because more often then not custody is nasty part of divorce. Maybe they were thrown off that we had already had that planned out or something.
tonymack21
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* 30-Aug(#56)
ya im sure, we had everything written out and all the forms done, all I had to do was go up and get it signed, since we had agreed to everything she just signed it, her main concern seemed to be that the kids would still have insurance carried on them, other than she just did it, this is the same judge that denied my 50/50 offer in the initial divorce, but more and more people are getting that now than used to.



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ft763
Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 1 Review Australia
* 30-Aug(#57)
This is rather late and off-topic, but...

Quote:

>
> And ya Dustin or getting kicked in the balls.. after a baby many women want more.
> You don't hear most guys asking to get kicked in the junk.
>

The reason behind 'women wanting more' is that they're told to focus not on the process nor the pain, but the joy.

Also, couples are generally advised to have as many kids as possible to minimise the risk of uterus cancer. Kinda like 'lose it if you don't use it'
tonymack21
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30-Aug(#58)
Lol ya. Was just a joke

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Osiris
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* 31-Aug(#59)
i Dustin wrote:
> People are quick to support "women's choice" but it's not really fair to both sides.
> I like fairness.

things got sidetracked so I want to make sure I understand the issue:

Woman has unilateral autonomy under current law to continue or terminate pregnancy, due to the circumstance that the human growing in her body affects her, and not her sexual partner.

Since the man in the situation does not have any choice at all in the matter of pregnancy termination or continuation, basic fairness would dictate that it would be his choice alone whether or not to contribute financially if the woman decides to carry to term?
tonymack21
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31-Aug(#60)
Osiris wrote:
> Dustin wrote:
>> People are quick to support "women's choice" but it's not really fair to both
> sides.
>> I like fairness.
>
> things got sidetracked so I want to make sure I understand the issue:
>
> Woman has unilateral autonomy under current law to continue or terminate pregnancy,
> due to the circumstance that the human growing in her body affects her, and not her
> sexual partner.
>
> Since the man in the situation does not have any choice at all in the matter of pregnancy
> termination or continuation, basic fairness would dictate that it would be his choice
> alone whether or not to contribute financially to the child rearing expenses after
> birth if the
> woman decides to carry to term.

yes, if woman has unilateral autonomy, so should the man.

though I don't support unilateral absolution for either side


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Karaiya
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31-Aug(#61)
I think what Osiris is getting at is the man could want to force the woman into abortion unfairly by not wanting to help financially after birth. This already happens quite often and there are laws protecting the child.

I think in this case we are focusing too much on what the mans rights are and not on what the child's rights are. We could argue that the child has a right to birth however, that child is still unborn. However, once that child is born no one should be free of the financial responsibility.
tonymack21
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* 31-Aug(#62)
i agree with that for sure, i don't advocate anyone should be able to shirk responsibility, i think both parents should always be responsible, im also a big believer in rights for children, they are people not things, and they are criminally under-represented in the system run by "crapty adults" as my man Ryuji would say ;)

and yes its sad that someone could force another and that it happens. that leads down another rabbit trail of too many women sleeping with sorry dudes and putting themselves in that position, even though they knew in many cases they were worthless, when pregnancy is always a risk. I do believe the child has a right to be born and that abortion should not be an option just because you want to. i do think that in the case of abnormalities and special cases it should be the parents choice though. but if you were just fooling around and both parents ''just don't want it" let someone adopt the baby if you just don't want it or cant take care of it. and again a rabbit trail, how many babies can the system support? would the baby be better off not being born if its life was just going to be horrible? there are a lot of neglected and abused kids in the foster system.

we always want to see things and make points from the "in a perfect world/situation" view, but sadly its not perfect and quite flawed. when imposing rules and laws on others its rarely if ever cookie and cut and dry, two situations facing the same issue can be completely different.

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Osiris
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* 31-Aug(#63)
the issue was not about the problem of abortion itself, it was a question about man/woman circumstances under law currently.

Tony says if woman has unilateral choice on pregnancy continuation, men have unilateral choice on financial support, yes?
Absolution was an interesting word choice.

How to resolve if the two parties disagree on pregnancy action going forward?
tonymack21
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* 31-Aug(#64)
yes i am saying neither side should have unilateral rights. but if one does, both should, i don't want that though. id prefer an equal system.

i guess that's why we have a system for when people disagree, its just not perfect, but it never will be because situations differ, and laws are written to be sweeping and overarching.

knowing she cant hold the man hostage for 18+ years financially might cut down on some of this carefree hook up culture and welfare queens though.

any system is going to have problems and flaws. i don't think there is an answer that suits all parties in many of these cases.


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Finn
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1-Sep(#65)
With skipping many posts here is what I think Dustin is saying....

A woman can abort a pregnancy without permission from the father. (Personally I think this is BS, I mean yes he cannot carry the child... that's just how that works but it's still his child he played a part in its creation so if he wants the child he should be able to keep it, sorry that's my rant)

So:

If a woman can abort without permission, how come a guy who does not want the child have to be on the hook for the rest of that child's life? (until 18 anyway) The woman has an out, but the man does not have one? That's not fair. If we are going to label dads as dead beats in this situation we should also label the woman as the same. Honestly, I think we would be better off if men had the option to sign away there rights to the child... how many pregnancies could be avoided? in this area you have women looking at well of men looking to get pregnant and a payday. Think of it as a "male abortion". I don't think someone is a dead beat in this situation rather the situation creates one... Yes I get the whole "they should not be having sex" mantra but it happens, women have an option to end it and walk away men don't.


I hate the idea of abortion for the most part, I was adopted and my birth mother chose to give me a shot at life! I peronally can't wait to start trying for kids and we will after our wedding next year... but like Dustin I believe in being fair.




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Karaiya
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* 1-Sep(#66)
If we could sing away rights to avoid paying child support you would see how many more men would do this than women would be getting abortions.
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
1-Sep(#67)
This is a pretty good article on how chold support has failed to kind of keep up with the modern family dynamic.

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/19/456632896/how-u-s-pa...
tonymack21
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1-Sep(#68)
The last three or four paragraphs are what I've been saying for years. 50/50 time and responsibility. More dad's would be more involved this way too and provide more to the child than child support accomplishes. So many stories out there of dad's who would be happy to spend more time and do more but the mothers are so tied to the idea they can only have the child every other weekend for a day or two.

I am really surprised we don't hear about more murders in these cases, but rather suicides.

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Osiris
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3-Sep(#69)
Finn wrote:
> A woman can abort a pregnancy without permission from the father. (Personally I
> think this is BS, I mean yes he cannot carry the child... that's just how that works
> but it's still his child he played a part in its creation
> If a woman can abort without permission

if you were the partner facing the reality of growing another human inside your body for nine months with all the physical and personal consequences and the challenge of childbirth at the end, you would be willing to require the permission of your sexual partner to decide whether or not you should do that?
tonymack21
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3-Sep(#70)
i dont think thats the issue, equality isnt about what everyone wants, its about what is right. we are saying that should be the rule, her feelings arent the issue, his rights are.

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Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
3-Sep(#71)
In parenting feelings are just as important as rights.
Osiris
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3-Sep(#72)
so a human does not have the right to decide what is acceptable to happen inside their own body?
DiamondDave
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3-Sep(#73)
Not until the man who isn't in the woman's life anymore has a say, they don't!

Even if he was, that crap ain't mine. I can feel free to get upset, I can end the relationship but what's happening biologically inside that woman's body is 100% her business unless she lets it become my business.
Osiris
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* 3-Sep(#74)
DiamondDave wrote:
> Not until the man who isn't in the woman's life anymore has a say, they don't!
>
> Even if he was, that crap ain't mine. I can feel free to get upset, I can end the
> relationship but what's happening biologically inside that woman's body is 100% her
> business unless she lets it become my business.

whatcha think, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament? that'll ruffle more than a few peacock feathers!

apologies for lack of proper citation of those older, unattractive feminists
DiamondDave
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3-Sep(#75)
I'd have to imagine there'd be some sort of Plenary Indulgence if men could get pregnant.
tonymack21
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* 3-Sep(#76)

Osiris wrote:
>
> whatcha think, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament? that'll
> ruffle more than a few peacock feathers!
>
> apologies for lack of proper citation of those older, unattractive feminists

id still argue both parents get a say, this isnt about gender.


DiamondDave wrote:
> Not until the man who isn't in the woman's life anymore has a say, they don't!
>
> Even if he was, that crap ain't mine. I can feel free to get upset, I can end the
> relationship but what's happening biologically inside that woman's body is 100% her
> business unless she lets it become my business.

so it isnt yours til its born? you can be held responsible for it by her and the state if she keeps it but you have no right in it otherwise?


i think we've talked this one into the wall, this is an issue that people dont change their minds on, and is and has been and will likely to continue to be one of the most divisive subjects in our culture. we can go round and round with it forever and no one is going to change their minds on it. some are going to believe that men shouldnt have a say and some are going to say they believe they should.

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DiamondDave
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3-Sep(#77)
It's just my semen in the poontang dawg, thatd be like me leaving my brisket in your fridge a month ago and getting upset when you toss some moldy egg rolls out man. Could it have continued to grow and cure cancer three decades later, sure. But it's not my fridge and it ain't my egg rolls and if I'm not on the Fridge Coucil I don't get a vote
Osiris
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* 3-Sep(#78)
it's all about gender, since there's only one gender that hosts and delivers, and both are responsible for support after.
Significant disparity in commitment and risk.
tonymack21
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* 3-Sep(#79)
im not saying anyone is gonna change their opinions, its just too big a subject. my children are exactly half mine, and have been since the moment of conception, they are half at least my genetic material, maybe more they look nothing like their mother lol. as a father i could never have the opinion that i had no say in their existence, but thats my feeling and opinion. we are all entitled to our own. its an infinite loop.

does it change the discussion if we are talking about a married husband and wife? or just a random hook up? i can see differences here.

gender cant matter, if it matters for this, it has to be admitted that gender matters for all subjects and the genders are different and created for different things. feminists will have to admit that the wage gap is farce and women have made less money than men over the years until recently because of the choices they made, to stay home for child rearing, to work less hours to accommodate kids schedules, forgoing high level corporate positions because of the time demand away from the family etc. if gender can matter, feminists have to give up the rest of their arguments. i would consider that trade. then i might be willing to say sorry bro she killed your kid, shouldnt have hooked up with that strange you knew that was risk.

why is the male able to be held responsible if the same isnt asked of the female, if this is the case feminists are going to have to admit they dont want equality, they just want special privileges and a leg up, and that isnt equality. i believe the feminist movement started out this way, asking for the vote, the right to be viewed as more than homemakers (which is a hard job, not taking anything away from stay at home parents). but now it just seems everyone wants a leg up and not equality




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DiamondDave
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* 3-Sep(#80)
The only reason I think gender matters here is because it's not the guy that has to carry it to term, and unless the woman chases after the guy for financial support (humiliating in its own way) has to raise the kid on their own as well.

Marriage changes everything imo; is the implication that a woman cannot get an abortion in a marriage if the man doesn't want it? That somehow the guy trumps the woman's decision? That the woman should be punished somehow for saying "I don't want this kid"? Because even if it is an even rights issue that you're advocating, you're still at a stalemate here where half the parties can't agree, BUT it's the woman, again, who has to carry it to term. The guy's just saying "have it." That doesn't seem queer to you? At least if it's a one-night stand abortion, I can say it's absolutely none of the guy's business if the child is born or not since he's not a part of her life, but with marriage and this insistence that the guy has some sort of right to tell a woman what to do with her body, that becomes something much more sinister to me.

Flip it around: The guy wants the woman to have an abortion in a marriage and the woman doesn't. Who's right there? Who "wins"?

Topic   Medical controversy discussion