Site_Feedback

Topic   Banning Loans, baby steps

bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
13-Jan(#1)
I've decided to ban loans from GameTZ. So I'm starting to take some steps to remove them from GameTZ and get the word out that they are no longer allowed here.

I just removed any topic in the forum that had "loan" in its subject.

If you see a new topic go up asking for a loan in some way, please use moderate on it to let me know. I'll remove it and try to talk to the people involved so they know it's no longer allowed.

This transition may take months and there are likely other steps coming. Things I'm considering:

o Add a new rule against loans on the Rules page.
o Search recent trades and send pm to users who have been doing loans to let them know.
o Send an email announcement about it.

If you have suggestions on things I can do to get loans off GameTZ, let me know.

Thanks for your support in this.
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago) Secret Santa
13-Jan(#2)
I think it is time for a new newsletter!

John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
13-Jan(#3)
yes

(I think you may have also deleted the topic in the Moderator forum where I brought this up? smile)
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
13-Jan(#4)
Yeah, most of the topics discussing loans were also moved to a private forum. You (as a mod) actually have access to that private forum "Loans" if you want to check it. We could move it back to General or something too, though it's long and has a lot of random stuff in it. I didn't actually delete any topics, just put them in a private Loans forum, so we can check stuff there, if there's some need to do that.

I wanted to take this step so people won't see examples of others asking for loans then do it too. It seemed like a good first step and was fairly easy too...
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
* 13-Jan(#5)
I just searched the completed trades by the word "loan," and it looks like PayPal loans became a thing in 2006 (there were several trades involving loaning items to one another prior to that). Since the first one completed on 7/17/2006, there have been almost 4,200 completed loan trades on the site. Are these going to be deleted, or modified in some way?

Although I did quite a few way back when, I quit doing them in 2008 for personal reasons. I made good money and only had to file 2 BTRs for relatively small amounts, but I started to feel like a payday lender, and was worried about how many people were getting repeat loans for higher and higher amounts. And I kept getting PMs asking for PayPal loans for a couple years after I had stopped.

I fully support this decision, but I'm curious what made you decide now to ban them after 12 and a half years?
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
13-Jan(#6)
I'm unsure what to do about existing loan trades. Deleting them would be drastic, maybe I could hide them in some way. I don't know.

That recent ban-loans topic got me to rethink loans. I never liked them, wish they'd never happened here, but had felt I shouldn't stop people because of my personal beliefs. There have been a lot of BTRs, though statistically, it's not that much. But, I think many who give a loan and get ripped off, never file a BTR too. Seeing that the majority of the community seem to be against loans now helped convince me. I'm still unsure about the extra effort it may take, but I'm willing to give it a try. If loans stopped on GameTZ, I'd be much happier.
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
* 13-Jan(#7)
I did a Google search for PayPal loan, and GameTZ doesn't even show up on the results anymore. I think PayPal promoting their own lending solutions is part of it, but also the number of loans has dropped significantly from 10 years ago.

I remember when it seemed like half the marketplace topics in any given day were people asking for PayPal loans.

I do think sending a newsletter or a mass PM would spread the word better than just a topic in Site Feedback.

Also, not sure how much you can do on the trade end of things, but is it possible to flag for review any new trades pended with "Loan" or "repayment" on either side, or "PP" or "Paypal" on both sides? You could then issue a specific PM to those folks to let them know PayPal loans are no longer allowed.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
14-Jan(#8)
I think GameTZ just doesn't show up well in Google results in general (since several years ago afaik, despite much effort on my part to do better, SEO, etc).

Yeah, something like that, maybe semi-automated search then I'd copy/paste some standard notification/warning pm to people still doing loans. I have noticed there are less loan topics and reactions to people asking for loans have gotten fairly negative (if not extremely harshly unpleasant, which I didn't discourage). So, it seemed like not allowing new loan topics is a good first step.

I probably will do the newsletter-like email announcement thing. I don't really have a way to do the mass pm thing. Well, maybe I do, I forget. It has been a while since I did something like that. I vaguely recall emailing a lot of people can cause trouble too (emails can get rejected as spam in various ways... so, we'll see).
DCGX
GameTZ Subscriber 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (11) Has Written 56 Reviews
14-Jan(#9)
yes Good move.

Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
14-Jan(#10)
The real GTZ starts here?
bonanza125
700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
15-Jan(#11)
bill wrote:
> I'm unsure what to do about existing loan trades. Deleting them would be drastic,
> maybe I could hide them in some way. I don't know.
>
> That recent ban-loans topic got me to rethink loans. I never liked them, wish they'd
> never happened here, but had felt I shouldn't stop people because of my personal
> beliefs. There have been a lot of BTRs, though statistically, it's not that much.
> But, I think many who give a loan and get ripped off, never file a BTR too. Seeing
> that the majority of the community seem to be against loans now helped convince me.
> I'm still unsure about the extra effort it may take, but I'm willing to give it
> a try. If loans stopped on GameTZ, I'd be much happier.

I am glad you made the decision to ban loans. A lot of people have been ripped off from loans or just struggle to pay whatever they owe back. As far as the existing loan trades I would say if you decide to delete all existing loan trades I do agree with you about sending an email to everybody that on this such date all loan trades will be deleted. Make sure they have a record of whatever was loaned out. Chances are a lot of those old loan trades aren't getting paid back anyway.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
15-Jan(#12)
I personally think you should leave past trades for loans. They were allowed at the time and can add meaning to accounts (even if the trade went fine, of course).

We've allowed much less "important" or "significant" trade reports.
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago) Secret Santa
15-Jan(#13)
John wrote:
> I personally think you should leave past trades for loans. They were allowed at
> the time and can add meaning to accounts (even if the trade went fine, of course).
>
> We've allowed much less "important" or "significant" trade reports.
>
This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well?

Gypsy
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
15-Jan(#14)
I believe the loan trades should remain in the history. They are part of the history of this site, even if some people view it as a bad portion. I understand the logic behind removing them, but as long as it is clear loans are no longer allowed it should be fine.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
15-Jan(#15)
Porksta wrote:
> This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well?

To note it, "freebie" trades already are not allowed and should be removed if they haven't already.

The point of the trading system is to show the reliability and trustworthiness of users here. So, we decided long ago that trades should be allowed if they have significant value and therefore show that trust and/or reliability. Freebie trades do not show that. SS trades are a weird mix, but we've allowed them because, in general, they do show trustworthiness, reliability, and usually have real value (i.e. "this user sent a $20 item to someone, so that should meet the requirements."

Just my 2c -- and memory as a Mod when we discussed this before. Freebie trades (or items of "low value" -- which is a bit hard to define exactly, but we used to say "less than a couple of bucks" as a guideline) are out, but other trades "of value" are usually in.

- John...
Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
15-Jan(#16)
John wrote:
> Porksta wrote:
>> This. Why not delete freebie or Secret Santa trades as well?
>
> To note it, "freebie" trades already are not allowed and should be removed if they
> haven't already.
>
> The point of the trading system is to show the reliability and trustworthiness of
> users here. So, we decided long ago that trades should be allowed if they have significant
> value and therefore show that trust and/or reliability. Freebie trades do not show
> that. SS trades are a weird mix, but we've allowed them because, in general, they
> do show trustworthiness, reliability, and usually have real value (i.e. "this user
> sent a $20 item to someone, so that should meet the requirements."
>
> Just my 2c -- and memory as a Mod when we discussed this before. Freebie trades
> (or items of "low value" -- which is a bit hard to define exactly, but we used to
> say "less than a couple of bucks" as a guideline) are out, but other trades "of value"
> are usually in.
>
> - John...
>

Incorrect. Freebie trades from the freebie forum have always been allowed. They only get deleted if someone abuses them.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
15-Jan(#17)
I think we're talking about two different things then. Basically, trades have to have some significant value. So, if the "freebie" item was someone giving away a $10 item, then, yes, it can be reported. That would be similar to the Secret Santa thing -- where they are one-sided, but still significant and show trust.

I originally thought by "freebie" he meant people doing things like "User A trades a week of subtime to User B for a smile and some love." Those "freebie" things are not allowed -- they don't have significant value.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
15-Jan(#18)
It's also worth noting that there are likely many pending loans trades, lots are likely old and overdue and basically unfiled BTRs.

OK, looking those up... https://gametz.com/?A=Pending+Trades&q=loan keep paging and paging frown 100s of rip offs?

No worries, I won't delete loans. Hiding them is a possibility, though I really don't have any great way to do that either. So, I probably won't. This whole loan thing is a problem that can't really be fixed, just made a little better perhaps (or not made worse may be a better way to put it).
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
15-Jan(#19)
Not too many pages, but a little bit scary to see so many pending loans for one particularly active user.
MrBean
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 1 Review Secret Santa
15-Jan(#20)
Surprised to see some of those still in a pending state with their age! Probably safe to assume anything > 1 year old is definitely dead.

Regardless, it's your call @bill and we're behind ya. I am an active loaner here, it's been largely a pleasant and rewarding experience (only had one potential temporary BTR I filed, later removed), but I'll cease and desist.

How will I fund my meth habit now ... I do not know. When I end up dead on the side of the road, I'll make sure I'm wearing a shirt that said "Bill did this".

haha, all in good fun, hope this yields the positive results you're after!
SirConnery
GameTZ Subscriber 1000 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
16-Jan(#21)
yes
whitefire
GameTZ Subscriber 550 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
16-Jan(#22)
One of the consequences of this I'm concerned about is anyone who is paying loans with loans. Won't those just become BTRs soon?

benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#23)
whitefire wrote:
> One of the consequences of this I'm concerned about is anyone who is paying loans
> with loans. Won't those just become BTRs soon?

That may be precisely the behavior bill is trying to curtail. It makes GameTZ seem like one of those shady payday lending places, but with less risk of wrecking your credit if you default.
whitefire
GameTZ Subscriber 550 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
16-Jan(#24)
benstylus wrote:
> whitefire wrote:
>> One of the consequences of this I'm concerned about is anyone who is paying loans
>> with loans. Won't those just become BTRs soon?
>
> That may be precisely the behavior bill is trying to curtail. It makes GameTZ seem
> like one of those shady payday lending places, but with less risk of wrecking your
> credit if you default.

I agree 100%. I'm just still concerned about the fallout of it though.

bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
* 16-Jan(#25)
OK, just added this to the Rules page ( https://gametz.com/Rules.html )

No Loans
Starting in 2019, loans are no longer allowed at GameTZ.
Sid_Ceaser
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 6 Reviews
16-Jan(#26)
Have you been getting blasted in PM's about this, Bill?



bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#27)
It looks like there were 36 gametz users that did a loan trade in 2018/19. I'm working toward pming each of them.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#28)
Sid_Ceaser wrote:
> Have you been getting blasted in PM's about this, Bill?

nope
Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
16-Jan(#29)
I'm disappointed there are not people in here complaining about this.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#30)

Here's a draft of the pm I'm planning to send to those 36 people who did a loan in 2018/19:


Subject: loans are banned
I'm sending this message out to people who did a loan trade in 2018.

I've decided to ban loans at GameTZ.

So, please don't do any new loans at GameTZ.

Reasons:
o There's a good chance loans are not legal.
o Many loans have gone bad (people got ripped off). Most of the BTRs in the last couple years have been loan-related.
o In a recent forum discussion, it was shown that the the majority of the community is against loans.

There's a topic in Site_Feedback about banning loans if you'd like to give public feedback. Or, you can reply to this pm if you want.

-bill
Sid_Ceaser
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 6 Reviews
16-Jan(#31)
I don't follow loans on here, but I would always get filled with a little anxiety when I saw ones pop up, especially from new users who were probably just following suit and copying what they saw with established traders. Or users to kept taking out loans over and over and ... anxiety.

I'm glad that so far there hasn't been any pushback. I'm glad that you don't have to deal with extra headache (yet)

Less headaches for you is a good thing.



bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#32)
Thank you for caring about my headaches. love

I have felt similar anxiety.
JD
GameTZ Subscriber 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
16-Jan(#33)
My new year resolution was not doing loans anymore since now i have money saved up aside in case of anything
So it have been good for me to do that now i support this going forward

bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#34)
Here's a draft of the email announcement (using the older newsletter system):

image

Maybe I'll give it a day, then send it out along with pm'ing the message I posted above to the 26 who did loans recently.
Gypsy
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
16-Jan(#35)
Archer wrote:
> I'm disappointed there are not people in here complaining about this.

I'm pleasantly surprised. Though the comedy value would be there.
jgrant78
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
16-Jan(#36)
When I first started here I did a few small loans because I thought it would be a good way to build up trust in the community. Luckily I never got burned, but I did have that uneasy feeling start to settle in on the last two or three I did and then was like, nope, I'm out. I remember that was right around the time a user, seems like it might have been qualityman, ran into some serious issues with getting stiffed or people wanting to renegotiate terms.
Sid_Ceaser
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 6 Reviews
16-Jan(#37)
You should add something that says "It's 2019! GameTZ has been here for xxx years!

Got some great stuff for Christmas that you already beat and are looking to trade for something else? Now is the time to add them to your "Available" lists!



Dasgessabel
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
16-Jan(#38)
I've done loans here in the past, but my main argument before was centered around bill being against it or not being the deciding factor - since he is, I support that, so no more loans. My main concern at this point would be obfuscation of loans, either by doing them through PMs or misleading trades - but I recognize that is not something you could even reign in, so not sure how concerning that should even be from a site owner standpoint.
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago) Secret Santa
16-Jan(#39)
Bill has scanners in place on this site. Anytime someone uses a keyword, be it in PM, chat, forum, offers, etc. he gets a notification. So in addition to "bill" I am sure he will just add "loans" to the keywords.

John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
16-Jan(#40)
Dasgessabel wrote:
> I've done loans here in the past, but my main argument before was centered around
> bill being against it or not being the deciding factor - since he is, I support that,
> so no more loans.

Same here. I've done many, but as soon as Bill said that he just didn't want them, I was cool with that. In fact, when he said it before in the General thread, but then didn't ban them at that point, I decided to stop and also suggested that he ban them. It's his site, I support his wishes. yes
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
16-Jan(#41)
Bill: The only thing I would suggest for those PMs and email would be a link that says something about completing existing loans as soon as possible. I don't want some people to get the idea that since loans are now banned from the site, that any pending ones are just "gone" or something. That seems obvious to me, but I'm not sure to everyone. So, it would be nice to see a line in there about finishing any loans already in progress as soon as possible. That sort of thing. yes
MrBean
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 1 Review Secret Santa
16-Jan(#42)
Only 36 users over the past year+? So really only 18 potentially have requested.

That's... Way less than expected. Not nearly the problem that we were lead to beileve.

Oh well, if it helps the site and Bill, fire off the communication!
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
16-Jan(#43)
MrBean wrote:
> Only 36 users over the past year+? So really only 18 potentially have requested.
>
>
> That's... Way less than expected. Not nearly the problem that we were lead to beileve.
>
> Oh well, if it helps the site and Bill, fire off the communication!

There could be a higher proportion of borrowers to lenders. Could be 26 people borrowing from 10 different lenders for example.
Archer
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
16-Jan(#44)
That is still only 26 out of 1,950.
Clown
GameTZ Subscriber 750 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
16-Jan(#45)
Archer wrote:
> That is still only 26 out of 1,950.

Used to be more but they have BTRs now.
Reed
GameTZ Subscriber 450 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
16-Jan(#46)
Looks like a certain user just pended another loan surprise
MrBean
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 1 Review Secret Santa
16-Jan(#47)
Reed wrote:
> Looks like a certain user just pended another loan surprise

Haha how is that possible with so many crazy outstanding?!
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (3 minutes ago)
16-Jan(#48)
I seriously don't understand how you give someone money that one, is clearly terrible with money and two, has loans nearly 3 years past due. Ridiculous.
SirConnery
GameTZ Subscriber 1000 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
16-Jan(#49)
surprise
bluemetal04
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
17-Jan(#50)
@Tad is still paying off his, should be done soon though?

bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#51)
This is where it gets ugly.
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#52)
I suggest anyone with a pending loan with Tad be patient. Part of his repayment schedule has probably been based on him thinking he can always just request another loan to cover the gap.

Now that they are no longer allowed, it may take a little longer for him to repay these loans.
Gypsy
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
17-Jan(#53)
bill wrote:
> This is where it gets ugly.

Oh boy, I assume Tad was one of the first people contacted. It would be pretty bad if he ignored you and did a loan anyway.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#54)
I haven't contacted people yet, so no issue. I'm just worried.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#55)
OK, I just sent out the 37 pms (had to add longhornsk57 because he pends loans without the word "loan" in them and had slipped through my search until I looked at Tad's recent loan).

Next, the email newsletter-like message...
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#56)
OK, 11,905 emails queued up to be sent.
jgrant78
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
17-Jan(#57)
Yeah, I wondered if anyone might try to circumvent the system a bit without using the word "loan" in any of the trade details. Guess it didn't even take Bill actually putting an official stop to the loans for the circumventing to start.
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Jan(#58)
bill wrote:
> OK, I just sent out the 37 pms (had to add longhornsk57 because he pends loans without
> the word "loan" in them and had slipped through my search until I looked at Tad's

To be fair Tad is the one who sends me those offers and he's the only one I'd help out with a loan. But now that they're banned it's a moot point.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#59)
I didn't intend any accusation. My search for "loan" is pretty crude. But, hopefully the word will get out either way.

longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Jan(#60)
bill wrote:
> I didn't intend any accusation. My search for "loan" is pretty crude. But, hopefully
> the word will get out either way.
>
>

Haha ya I know. It's all good I think the word has been spread far and wide my man.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
17-Jan(#61)
Someone did actually make a loan topic at like 4pm today. dead face
longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Jan(#62)
bill wrote:
> Someone did actually make a loan topic at like 4pm today. dead face

Wow. Well then send out the carrier pigeons
SirConnery
GameTZ Subscriber 1000 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
17-Jan(#63)
Or someone doesn't check emails.
tonymack21
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 3 Reviews Secret Santa
* 17-Jan(#64)
i havent gotten my email yet, maybe they are still sending out in the queue

also i think this is a good move overall

MrBean
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (7) Has Written 1 Review Secret Santa
17-Jan(#65)
Bill, fwiw, none of mine show up as I don't use "loan" in the trade. As this dwindles down, may want to search for PayPal, repayment, or even month names to better uncover some of them.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
18-Jan(#66)
I got some feedback, someone brave enough to call me on my BS:

image
Sid_Ceaser
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 6 Reviews
18-Jan(#67)
Loan bigot.



benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
18-Jan(#68)
Was this complaint from someone who generally borrows or someone who lends? That changes the subtext somewhat.
jgrant78
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Secret Santa
18-Jan(#69)
benstylus wrote:
> Was this complaint from someone who generally borrows or someone who lends? That
> changes the subtext somewhat.

My thought exactly. Wasn't it Shakespeare who wrote, "Neither a borrower or a lender be...or if thou prevent those things on your game trading website, a bigot you be?"
Becvar
Triple Gold Good Trader
* 18-Jan(#70)
I guess Im lumped into one of the 36 people because I did a single loan lending right at the end of the year, lol. I had done a few in the past, but only with people that had a solid history of loans in their feedback. There is clearly one person everyone is targeting here, but if you look at his history, the guy does pay his stuff back. I can attest. Why he does it or how he makes it work I don't care, but I presume his GTZ credit rating would be pretty solid at this point.

Perhaps a different approach could have been putting rules in place for loans, although this may have been difficult to monitor. Such as:

- If you have under 5 loans taken out, you can only have one outstanding at a time and for $25 or less. Use this to build up loan rep.
- Once 5 complete, the cap bumps to $50 with 2 outstanding at a time.
- once 10 complete, you get an "approved borrower" flair, cap goes to $100 but can still only do 2 at a time.

These measures mitigate the risk on possible losses, and prevent someone from taking out a bunch of $50-100 loans and ghosting. Again, may be tough to monitor unless Bill or whomever kept using the "loan" search on trades a couple times a week.

Not entirely sure loans are illegal per say, although I don't know the legality of being on a public forum. I cant imagine any action could, or would, be taken however.

Anyway, they are banned and Im cool with that so this doesnt matter just wanted to chime in!
Dustin
GameTZ Subscriber 650 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (3 minutes ago)
18-Jan(#71)
Becvar wrote:
> if you look at his history, the guy does pay his stuff back.
> I can attest. Why he does it or how he makes it work I don't care, but I presume
> his GTZ credit rating would be pretty solid at this point.
>

You consider loans that are two and a half years past due to be "pretty solid"? In that case, can you lend me some money? I'll be sure to get it back to you....sometime....maybe.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
18-Jan(#72)
Becvar wrote:
> Not entirely sure loans are illegal per say, although I don't know the legality of
> being on a public forum. I cant imagine any action could, or would, be taken however.

The problem with loans is usury laws. There are limits on interest rates (or "fees") for loans in the majority of states. Most people doing loans here seem to be ignoring those -- most of the interest/fees charged are well above legal rates in most states.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
18-Jan(#73)
Dustin wrote:
> can you lend me some money?

Dustin just asked for a loan! Perma-ban! FINALLY!

wink
Scott
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 1 Review
18-Jan(#74)
@bill FYI the email you sent went to my junk folder. Not sure if there's anything you can do about that, but it's possible some users won't see it at all.
DCGX
GameTZ Subscriber 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (11) Has Written 56 Reviews
18-Jan(#75)
If people rely that much on GameTZ for loans, they should either 1) go to a company that is actually in existence to make loans or 2) and the more likely scenario, take a good, hard look at your budgeting and try to be more responsible.

If you're taking out one or two small loans (like $100 or so) a year, ok, but again, if you're relying on this site as more or less a way to bridge a money situation, that's a short term solution at best and a huge hole (potentially more) that can't be dug out of at worst.

Plus I would assume it's not like bill is making money off each loan. This is potentially worst for him than anyone actually involved in the loans.

benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
18-Jan(#76)
John wrote:
> Becvar wrote:
>> Not entirely sure loans are illegal per say, although I don't know the legality
> of
>> being on a public forum. I cant imagine any action could, or would, be taken however.
>
> The problem with loans is usury laws. There are limits on interest rates (or "fees")
> for loans in the majority of states. Most people doing loans here seem to be ignoring
> those -- most of the interest/fees charged are well above legal rates in most states.
>

It gets more complicated when you talk about online loans between states / countries. Ald also, whether usury laws apply to private loans between individuals, although I would guess that if someone is making a lot of loans it could be argued that they no longer count as an individual and move up to the status of business...

And there's always the chance that someone will potentially include GameTZ in a lawsuit regarding a financial loss related to their use of the site.

Plus, having unnecessary debt is just a bad idea in general - particularly when it becomes a cycle of continually borrowing from one lender to pay back another.
Porksta
GameTZ Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago) Secret Santa
18-Jan(#77)
What bill needs to do is allow us to sell our subtime back to the site. So if a user needs a loan, we send him subtime. He sells it back and then buys us even more subtime when it is due!

Gypsy
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Secret Santa
18-Jan(#78)
Scott wrote:
> @bill FYI the email you sent went to my junk folder. Not sure if there's anything
> you can do about that, but it's possible some users won't see it at all.

I never even received it, and I checked my spam folder. Maybe gmail auto-pruned it.
bill
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (15) Has Written 26 Reviews
18-Jan(#79)
I calculate the APR on that recent "80" for "90 mar 3" loan/trade to be just under 100% APR using the method on this page https://www.thebalance.com/annual-percentage-rate-... (under "Calculate APR on Payday Loans" which has a way to do it by day, this is a 46 day loan). Most states seem to have APR limits more like 10% as far as I know.

Though, clearly, it's more complicated than that because payday loan places often can get 300%+ APR and seem to be operating legally as far as I can tell. I know in my state they were shutdown then came back. I think it's complicated and political to some degree.

I'm using my (perhaps bigoted) power to simply say "no" here. It's my site and I never intended it to be a place to do loans. I personally think payday loans are horrible and exploitative, ultimately hurting the people getting the loans tremendously, though they have a hard time seeing or understanding that. Financial literacy in this country is shamefully bad and we all pay for it. I could rant some more, but I'll cut myself off

I don't want loans here in any form. I don't have to give a reason. It's my site, I'm laying down the law on this. It's not up for discussion. I should have done this 15+ years ago and I deeply regret not doing that. No Loans period, end of story. Don't like it, there's the door. I think Boss said there are other sites that do loans, go there.
John
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (13) Secret Santa
18-Jan(#80)
benstylus wrote:
> It gets more complicated when you talk about online loans between states / countries.

Agreed -- but, in most cases, it still applies to the state making the loan, at least. I did some research on this last year.

> Ald also, whether usury laws apply to private loans between individuals, although
> I would guess that if someone is making a lot of loans it could be argued that they
> no longer count as an individual and move up to the status of business...

Usury laws in most states absolutely apply to individuals. In fact, it is the reverse of what you might think -- in many states, you can write a contract that ignores usury laws as long as the loan is for a business entity -- but you can't do that for personal loans. So, yes, most usury laws do apply to private loans between individuals.

> And there's always the chance that someone will potentially include GameTZ in a lawsuit
> regarding a financial loss related to their use of the site.

Agreed -- people will sue anyone for anything. frown

Topic   Banning Loans, baby steps