VideoGame_Discussion

Topic   Epic vs Apple

Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
25-Aug(#1)
This is going to be interesting! I am really cheering for the little guy here!!







SwiftJAB
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
25-Aug(#2)
I know Apple is the big guy here, but Epic is far from little especially with them being backed by Tencent, haha. I'm all in favor of actions that benefit consumers. The question is, will a ruling in favor of Epic trickle down to the consumer? Or will it just deepen the pockets of the share holders?
dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 25-Aug(#3)
Both are being Dbags. Epic knowingly violated Apples ToS and was booted for it. I don't think that Apple needed to threaten to de-list every game using Unreal Engine from their app store either. In the end I think Epic will lose. They agreed to Apple's ToS and knowingly violated them resulting in Apple taking action. I'm in no way an fan of Apple but I think they're the ones mostly in the right, legally speaking. Epic also has a bit of a history recently with picking fights.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
25-Aug(#4)
SwiftJAB wrote:
> I know Apple is the big guy here, but Epic is far from little especially with them
> being backed by Tencent, haha. I'm all in favor of actions that benefit consumers.
> The question is, will a ruling in favor of Epic trickle down to the consumer? Or
> will it just deepen the pockets of the share holders?

Well purchases through the epic game store where already 20% or more cheaper so I would say there would be a trickle down effect for sure.




Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
25-Aug(#5)
dustin11 wrote:
> Both are being Dbags. Epic knowingly violated Apples ToS and was booted for it. I
> don't think that Apple needed to threaten to de-list every game using Unreal Engine
> from their app store either. In the end I think Epic will lose. They agreed to Apple's
> ToS and knowingly violated them resulting in Apple taking action. I'm in no way an
> fan of Apple but I think they're the ones mostly in the right, legally speaking.
> Epic also has a bit of a history recently with picking fights.

Very true, but this is 2020 and we have already seen some crazy crap! I think Epic is smart however in doing this now they seem to have more momentum behind it then it would in any other year! They are also making Apple draw more attention to itself and that may not work in there favor as they are already being looked at for bullying app makers. Again, I am cheering the little guy here! Apple needs to be held in check.. but I do agree I think Apple will end up winning in the long run.




dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
25-Aug(#6)
Finn wrote:
> dustin11 wrote:
>> Both are being Dbags. Epic knowingly violated Apples ToS and was booted for it.
> I
>> don't think that Apple needed to threaten to de-list every game using Unreal Engine
>> from their app store either. In the end I think Epic will lose. They agreed to
> Apple's
>> ToS and knowingly violated them resulting in Apple taking action. I'm in no way
> an
>> fan of Apple but I think they're the ones mostly in the right, legally speaking.
>> Epic also has a bit of a history recently with picking fights.
>
> Very true, but this is 2020 and we have already seen some crazy crap! I think Epic
> is smart however in doing this now they seem to have more momentum behind it then
> it would in any other year! They are also making Apple draw more attention to itself
> and that may not work in there favor as they are already being looked at for bullying
> app makers. Again, I am cheering the little guy here! Apple needs to be held in check..
> but I do agree I think Apple will end up winning in the long run.
>
>
>
>
>

The court has already said that Epic's Fortnite predicament is of its own making, as the game developer breached the contract with Apple. Doesn't matter how much devs back Epic as its the courts who ultimately decide and it sounds like they're already siding with Apple. As far as the Unreal engine delisting, the Judge said that the entity that governs that product had not breached its contract with Apple, but that hearing was delayed until next month IIRC.
Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
25-Aug(#7)
There have been reports floating around that apple has told developers with games/apps that don't have in game/app purchase, that they have to add them so apple can get their 30% cut or they will remove/ban them. Those companies now need to band together and take a suit against apple. Fudge apple.
Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
25-Aug(#8)
But also fudge Epic.
Scott
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 2 Reviews
25-Aug(#9)
I haven't been following this, how did Epic violate Apple's TOS?
Anxiouz
900 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
25-Aug(#10)
They added an option that takes users out of the app to pay for DLC (at a discount no less). The Apple terms are clear that all payments must be in-app.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
25-Aug(#11)
Interesting, Microsoft had joined in the action supporting Epic.




https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s...



EclipseLion
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (29 seconds ago)
25-Aug(#12)
Perfect time for Fall Guys to scoop up all those mobile users

Kommie
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader
25-Aug(#13)
fudge em both.

longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
26-Aug(#14)
Finn wrote:
> Interesting, Microsoft had joined in the action supporting Epic.
>

They're not supporting Epic, they are only saying Epic should be able to develop for iOS while the case is ongoing.
dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
26-Aug(#15)
longhornsk57 wrote:
> Finn wrote:
>> Interesting, Microsoft had joined in the action supporting Epic.
>>
>
> They're not supporting Epic, they are only saying Epic should be able to develop
> for iOS while the case is ongoing.

Plus I'm sure MS would be pissed if Epic released a patch which allowed for in game purchasing to circumvent buying things on XBL with the explicit design to cut MS out of the profits. What Epic did was super sketchy and they deserve to lose this part of the case.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
26-Aug(#16)
I agree, to a point... they are not supporting what Epic did with there app store and blatantly voided the terms they agreed to but they ARE supporting there fight when it comes to the Unreal engine dev tools. So they are supporting them, they did through there hat in the ring.. they are just supporting one of the 2 battles...

longhornsk57
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
26-Aug(#17)
Finn wrote:
> I agree, to a point... they are not supporting what Epic did with there app store
> and blatantly voided the terms they agreed to but they ARE supporting there fight
> when it comes to the Unreal engine dev tools. So they are supporting them, they did
> through there hat in the ring.. they are just supporting one of the 2 battles...
>

All that they are saying is they should be able to develop for mac and iOS during the legal battle, nothing more. It's kind of a random and dumb take, like who cares what MS thinks they have nothing to do with this. Epic and still use UE4 and UE5 and develop for anything other than iOS and mac.
dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
26-Aug(#18)
Yeah, I don't know why Facebook, MS, and others think their opinion matters at all with this dispute. The courts aren't sitting there waiting for other dev's takes on it until they make their ruling.
Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
26-Aug(#19)
Those companies chimed in because they've been having issues dealing with Apple as well recently. So its more of just a hey fudge you apple. We are showing public support in the most trivial and dumb way possible against you. Its just posturing.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
26-Aug(#20)
Exactly. Again Apple is taking heat for its bullying practices on its app store like forcing free apps to monetize like WordPress, though they backtracked on that. What companies like MS and FB are doing is simply drawing more and more attention to something Apple wishes would just go away. It maybe trivial but I love when MS takes a swipe at Apple.





Kommie
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader
26-Aug(#21)
Steve Jobs seemed to think Android was a blatant copy of iOS (or something like that) and only wanted Apple to be able to sell "smart" phones. Apple could go under and I wouldn't care, but they won't. Never got the appeal of them.

dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
26-Aug(#22)
I think they tried to sue Google for making their smart phone rectangular. They were out of control under Steve Jobs.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
26-Aug(#23)
That was not Google, they went after Samsung for the rectangle thing. They were out of control. They even sued a school in Vancouver over there emblem...



dunno001
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
26-Aug(#24)
Kommie wrote:
> Never got the appeal of them.

Even as the owner of an iPad, I don't get it either. I've tried several cases, but all of them seem to have a slight flex that causes the case to crack around the charge port. It still charges, but if I need work done, it's considered "damaged" because of it. Unfortunately, I want a tablet, I won't use an Android item even for free, and the Windows tablets are either too small or too expensive (ala the Surface). Ruling those out, I don't have any other choice...

Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
27-Aug(#25)
We have an Ipad, my wife uses it for her workouts mainly and I use it if I want to watch Youtube videos in bed and don't want to turn on the TV. It's a toy. Even the Ipad Pro, it's a bloody toy. I want to Surface Pro, but I don't do enough to justify the cost. Once this covid stuff eases up I am sure I will be doing more PC repair so I could justify it then. I could see myself getting a Chromebook, I like the Chromebook OS, but I am also not a fan of typical Android tablets.

dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
27-Aug(#26)
Only Apple product I ever bought was a 2nd gen iPod Nano way back like 15 years ago. My Wife has had iPods, an iPhone, and an iWatch and has hated every one of those devices. iPad and iPhone was for her business because of payment app availability and the iWatch was because it was recommended to her by a friend. I don't see myself ever buying an apple product as they always seem to be over priced and I don't like the ecosystem.
SwiftJAB
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
27-Aug(#27)
While I dropped Apple back at the iPhone 4, the one thing I appreciate about them is how long their iOS support is. With Android devices, you're looking at 1 or 2 major updates before being forced to upgrade hardware.It's probably not that big of a deal any more as it seems like both iOS and Android have kind of plateaued. It looks like Apple is finally adding in widgets into iOS 14 after all these years.
Frank
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (12) Has Written 11 Reviews
27-Aug(#28)
SwiftJAB wrote:
> While I dropped Apple back at the iPhone 4, the one thing I appreciate about them
> is how long their iOS support is. With Android devices, you're looking at 1 or 2
> major updates before being forced to upgrade hardware.

I believe you have it backwards bud smile


SwiftJAB
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
27-Aug(#29)
Frank wrote:
> I believe you have it backwards bud smile
>
>

How so? iOS 13 is supported on devices released back in 2015 (iPhone 6s). My Galaxy S8 was released in 2017 and stopped receiving major updates after Android 9, which was released back in 2018 (Samsung didn't roll it out until early 2019).
Frank
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (12) Has Written 11 Reviews
27-Aug(#30)
SwiftJAB wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>> I believe you have it backwards bud smile
>>
>>
>
> How so? iOS 13 is supported on devices released back in 2015 (iPhone 6s). My Galaxy
> S8 was released in 2017 and stopped receiving major updates after Android 9, which
> was released back in 2018 (Samsung didn't roll it out until early 2019).

My parents apparently had to upgrade last year from their iPhone 6s' due to the update not being supported.

My major gripe with iOS is you can't download everyday apps without having the latest update, whereas you can still download most on older Android versions.

Anxiouz
900 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
* 27-Aug(#31)
I have a Series 1 apple watch and it's been able to run all watchOS updates up until literally a month ago when it got it's final update. So it went through watchOS versions 3-6 in 4 years. That's impressive.

People complain that Apple products are expensive, and yes they absolutely are. But the quality and ongoing update support for older devices is fantastic. For me they also last much longer than other products and have fewer issues (in my experience).

Spreading out the cost of said watch above over 4 years...puts it's actual cost at like $4 a month. That's an incredible value.

Frank wrote:
> My parents apparently had to upgrade last year from their iPhone 6s' due to the update
> not being supported.

That's a 5 year run...which I think is pretty damn outstanding.
Frank
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (12) Has Written 11 Reviews
* 27-Aug(#32)
Anxiouz wrote:
> I have a Series 1 apple watch and it's been able to run all watchOS updates up until
> literally a month ago when it got it's final update. So it went through watchOS versions
> 3-6 in 4 years. That's impressive.
>
> People complain that Apple products are expensive, and yes they absolutely are. But
> the quality and ongoing update support for older devices is fantastic. For me they
> also last much longer than other products and have fewer issues (in my experience).
>
>
> Spreading out the cost of said watch above over 4 years...puts it's actual cost at
> like $4 a month. That's an incredible value.
>
> Frank wrote:
>> My parents apparently had to upgrade last year from their iPhone 6s' due to the
> update
>> not being supported.
>
> That's a 5 year run...which I think is pretty damn outstanding.

They only had their phones for 2 years. Bought new at Apple xP


Missile
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader
27-Aug(#33)
> I am really cheering for the little guy here!!
and which one is that? Tencent or Apple? I'm guessing it's Apple.
dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
27-Aug(#34)
I've had my Nokia 520 for 6 years now and it still works very well. Only issue is there is pretty much no app support but that thing is super durable and has survived probably 50 drops onto hardwood floors and concrete. Recently preordered the Surface Duo to replace it though because my current phone can't make or receive calls where I currently live because its too weak to pick up a cell signal.
SwiftJAB
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
27-Aug(#35)
Missile wrote:
> |> I am really cheering for the little guy here!!
> and which one is that? Tencent or Apple? I'm guessing it's Apple.

JFYI, Tencent tiny in comparison to Apple when you talk about net worth ($134B to $1.3T)
benstylus
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
28-Aug(#36)
Sure, but with those valuations, both companies can afford very good lawyers for as long as it takes.
Anxiouz
900 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
28-Aug(#37)
Frank wrote:
> They only had their phones for 2 years. Bought new at Apple xP

Fair enough, but that doesn't change that Apple supported that device for 5 years. They bought a 3-year old phone, even if it was new. The hardware and software didn't break, it just became unsupported due to age.
Frank
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (12) Has Written 11 Reviews
28-Aug(#38)
Anxiouz wrote:
> Frank wrote:
>> They only had their phones for 2 years. Bought new at Apple xP
>
> Fair enough, but that doesn't change that Apple supported that device for 5 years.
> They bought a 3-year old phone, even if it was new. The hardware and software didn't
> break, it just became unsupported due to age.

A lot of times the apps themselves will work, it's Apple being restrictive. There's workarounds to getting them to work on older phones, but defeats the purpose of Apple's "simplicity" and "ease of use", that iPhone owners have come to expect.
EclipseLion
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (29 seconds ago)
28-Aug(#39)
Epic has been removed completely from the app store

dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
29-Aug(#40)
Hahaha. Well that back fired.
Missile
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader
29-Aug(#41)
EclipseLion wrote:
> Epic has been removed completely from the app store
Owned.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
30-Aug(#42)
I could see myself getting a Surface Duo, watched an Unbox Therapy video and it looks great! The only thing holding me back is seeing how good the camera is.




dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Aug(#43)
I'm on a big Surface Duo group on facebook (to get updates before it was released) and supposedly the camera is better than the iPhone X's camera. Alot of Best Buys and AT&T stores have demo units. I was going to hold off on it because of the price but its my Birthday month so Best Buy gave me 10% off so I figured why not.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
* 31-Aug(#44)
I still have a year on this phone ... So by the time I need a new one the Duo 2 should be out.. I am impressed... I just hope MS can actually movie units now! But I think Android will play a huge roll in that. There phones have always been well built but nobody wanted mobile windows on there phone.


Well, nobody is harsh, just not enough to warrant continuing production.





dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Aug(#45)
The issue was that their app adoption was never very good so not many wanted to invest into that ecosystem. They gave it a good shot but just came in way too late into the game. I don't think this phone is really meant to move a ton of units, its more like a hero device and they're marketing it more towards enterprise professionals. The hardware looks insane though, all the unboxings I've seen of it the people are blown away at the premium feel of it.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
31-Aug(#46)
Yep! If you like good unboxing shows I really recommend Unbox Therapy, the way some companies go all out and send him the most unique packaging for the tech he reviews is amazing. He is from Toronto, but when he talks pricing it's mostly in USD.






dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Aug(#47)
That was one I watched this morning. I typically don't watch unboxing videos for things but this one was posted on the SD facebook page so I took a look at it. It was a well done video and I enjoyed the honest commentary he gave.
Frank
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 700 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (12) Has Written 11 Reviews
31-Aug(#48)
I don't see the appeal of a two screened phone... but I also wasn't a fan of the Razer Phone 2. It's a great device, beautiful display, runs games and apps like a champ. Just didn't like the size, or the fact that phone features seemed like an after thought.

dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Sep(#49)
I've heard it likened to PC use to where people who need multiple monitors will get the most use out of this and thats who its aimed for, but not everyone needs a duel monitory PC setup and can get by with a single screen device.
Kommie
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader
1-Sep(#50)
Dual monitor PC is great, not sure the reason for a phone though. I imagine that will drain the battery real fast.

dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Sep(#51)
Email on one, skype on the other is one example. I've been in numerous meetings recently where I've experienced people struggling with this very situation. Keep in mind, this was made more for business professionals more than anything, but being someone who uses a 3-screen PC setup for work I'm very used to having multiple monitors for workflow so this thing is right up my alley. I think its one of those "didn't know I needed it until I used it" kind of situations.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
1-Sep(#52)
Yeah, I absolutely love the idea behind it. If this Huawei thing dose not go away anytime soon a Duo 2 could be in my future, I just want to see where the camera is at when we see actual reviews.... But the fact people are saying it's on par or better then iPhone 11 then that's promising.

Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
1-Sep(#53)
I was listening to Lew Later (the Unbox Therapy guy that has a pretty good pod cast/show) he had a good take on this whole Epic vs Apple thing, touching on how there original policies don't were never ment for how the store works today.

He also touched on this and it's kind of a dick move on Apple's part and to some degree even Google's though the article does not go so much into detail about how they deal with it ....


The more people jumping on board and you may not call it support, even though it's not a lot it's still something ... If Epic wins even a little it could change the way app stores work and there needs to be a change.




dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
2-Sep(#54)
Sounds like Epic already lost, they can't return the game to the App store until they remove the feature they put into the game where it circumvents Apple's ability to collect fees on the game. Apple's dick move of nuking Epics account is also struck down, but all in all Epic has lost this one which isn't a huge surprise.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
15-Sep(#55)
Apple just made some moves that will allow Stadia and Xcloud but it's one of those you can but you won't, but we can say we tried things. Basically every game on Xcloud has to be purchased through the app store ... With Stadia it works a little better but does this not undermine what MS is doing with Xcloud?








dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
15-Sep(#56)
From what I was reading each game has to be their own separate download or something weird.

Sounds like Epic screwed itself hard though. iOS was 1/3rd of Fortnite's entire player base and now 60% of its users have left since Apple delisted the game. Now Epic is crying that Apple is causing irreparable harm to its business.
Kommie
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader
15-Sep(#57)
Well, had Epic not done what they did, they wouldn't be losing money.

razeak
Double Gold Good Trader Has Written 9 Reviews
15-Sep(#58)
Hate iTunes, hate Epic Launcher.
SwiftJAB
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
16-Sep(#59)
Apple didn't change squat to their guidelines. Yes, there was language added, but all it did was re-affirm Apple's position of "we want 30%". Basically Apple knows that DLC and micro-transactions are big money makers. The side-effects of game streaming lead to Apple losing the opportunity to get a cut of that. Just think, Epic could put Fortnite and Rocket League on a streaming service and make a killing on the savings.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
16-Sep(#60)
I don't think Epic will loose much in the long run, the people that play will migrate to Android or Switch... They may get hit in the short run I just want this to really change how App stores are run. The decisions Apple makes today will effect how they will operate tomorrow.

Gaming is only growing and if there platform goes anti gamer then they may Blackberry themselves.

I seen some videos on Xcloud today and it looks very promising. Console level gaming on a mobile platform, the younger phone buyers today are going to gravitate to what platform caters to there needs, Apple is pushing them away with there greed. They may have to change there "they need us" attitude to we kinda need eachother.




dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
16-Sep(#61)
Still need to try XCloud on my Duo. I've seen people streaming on one screen while streaming netflix or some other streaming device on the other, looks like there are quite a few possibilities with it which should be fun to dig into.
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
16-Sep(#62)
It looks good, looks good on the Flip 2, though that notch plays around with the screen a little..but the sound is better. Also seen it on the LG Wing... as if I needed another reason to get one!




dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
16-Sep(#63)
whats the aspect ration of the wing?
Finn
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Canada
16-Sep(#64)
The main screen is 6.8" 20.5:9 the 2nd screen is 3.9" 1:1.15.

I love that this also has a gimble, also. It's a very exciting form factor. I also love the bigger battery but midrange chipset.... I would argue that most of the people that but flagships don't use the power that's in the phones... I play a few games and even I doubt I use the full power of this phone...





dustin11
Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
16-Sep(#65)
Yeah I would rather take a mid range chip set if that meant batter life. Battery is definitely a huge factor for me. I don't want to charge my phone every 8 hours.

Topic   Epic vs Apple