VideoGame_Discussion

Topic   Worst cliches in video games

thatfootballguy
Triple Gold Good Trader
31-Mar(#1)
It seems to be easy for designers to draw inspiration from games from yesteryear.

One cliche I never really enjoy are impossible battle scenarios in RPG games. You are expected to use good strategy to fight the battle and try your best...and then you realize it doesn't matter, because you are supposed to die.

What is your least favorite cliche in video games?
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
31-Mar(#2)
JRPGs where the villain just wants to destroy the world/planet they live on. Like, you'll die too dude, what does this accomplish? This seemed way more common in the PS1/PS2 era. Especially with Final Fantasy. Or I'm just remembering it horribly wrong.

Bleed_DukeBlue
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
* 31-Mar(#3)
Saving the princess/other damsel in distress (e.g. in countless Mario games).

Edit: That's hilarious that someone negged me for this. This has to be one of the biggest video game cliches of all time.
Cevil
Silver Good Trader
31-Mar(#4)
The first thing that comes to mind is the crazy amount of video games (especially RPG's) with terrible dialogue. Just lazy, uninspiring, and boring conversations that bring little to no life to the characters and game itself.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
31-Mar(#5)
Cevil wrote:
> The first thing that comes to mind is the crazy amount of video games (especially
> RPG's) with terrible dialogue. Just lazy, uninspiring, and boring conversations that
> bring little to no life to the characters and game itself.

I haven't played the full thing yet but the FF7R demo, and some other stuff I've seen for it suffers from this. Great, realistic graphics hampered by awful dialogue.

-character is literally dying-

"Hehe, you still owe me a Pizza!"

BloodPuppetX
350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 31-Mar(#6)
I first noticed the unwinnable battle trope when I was playing one of the Baten Kaitos games. Definitely tired of that one. Also, the plot twist where you learn your character is some chosen one or something close to the end. (If you played Infinite Space or Radiant Historia, to name a couple, then you probably know what I mean.)
Anxiouz
900 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
31-Mar(#7)
The #1 offender for me is the bulky male space marine. If I say Gears of War and Doom, you know exactly what I mean.
Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review This user is on the site NOW (2 minutes ago)
1-Apr(#8)
Being captured by the bad guy mid story and having all your gear taken away. Only to escape in an impossible way and get all your gear back that they packed into one convenient chest.


nonamesleft
Gold Good Trader
* 1-Apr(#9)
Archer wrote:
> Being captured by the bad guy mid story and having all your gear taken away. Only
> to escape in an impossible way and get all your gear back that they packed into one
> convenient chest.
>
>
>

Haha! Good one. Had something similar happen recently in a game I'm playing. Of course all the confiscated gear was stashed in an unusually convenient location. grin
Gypsy
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Apr(#10)
Archer wrote:
> Being captured by the bad guy mid story and having all your gear taken away. Only
> to escape in an impossible way and get all your gear back that they packed into one
> convenient chest.
>
>
>

Absolutely classic lol.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
1-Apr(#11)
Gypsy wrote:
> Archer wrote:
>> Being captured by the bad guy mid story and having all your gear taken away. Only
>> to escape in an impossible way and get all your gear back that they packed into
> one
>> convenient chest.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Absolutely classic lol.

Did they ever poke fun at this in the recent South Park games? I recall one part where they made fun of the "dying person leaving detailed notes around" cliche

Dr_Spaceman
GameTZ Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#12)
How about in games like Metroid or God of War 2 where your items and power ups are taken from you at the start of the game and you have to require the same moves over the course of the sequel. Why is my morph ball stripped from me every time and I have to get it back?

incubus421
400 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#13)
uhh...Amnesia
shadyfozzie
Triple Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#14)
Watching a cut scene, dying after it, and forced to watch the same cut scene again, without the chance to skip it..
Also, missions where you have to trek ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BEGINNING to complete...
KCPenguins
Gold Good Trader
* 2-Apr(#15)
shadyfozzie wrote:
> Watching a cut scene, dying after it, and forced to watch the same cut scene again,
> without the chance to skip it..
>


I was having troubles thinking of one, but this one. My goodness, this one. Nothing more enfuriating than this before a tough boss fight or section, even more so if there is dialog. I can picture myself immaturity repeating the dialog in a grade school sarcastic manner.

Also quick time events.
BloodPuppetX
350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
2-Apr(#16)
Yeah, amnesia is the correct answer. Just started a game called Fantasian (from Mistwalker) on Apple Arcade, and sure enough, the main character has amnesia.
Gypsy
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
2-Apr(#17)
KCPenguins wrote:
> shadyfozzie wrote:
>> Watching a cut scene, dying after it, and forced to watch the same cut scene again,
>> without the chance to skip it..
>>
>
>
> I was having troubles thinking of one, but this one. My goodness, this one. Nothing
> more enfuriating than this before a tough boss fight or section, even more so if
> there is dialog. I can picture myself immaturity repeating the dialog in a grade
> school sarcastic manner.
>
> Also quick time events.

I still have ptsd of the time when every damn game forced in crapty qtes.

RE cutscenes I just about broke a controller playing Kane and Lynch. I confirmed later that you basically just have to get lucky because the aiming physics are so bad in that spot. I must have saw the same fudging cutscene 20 times.
Alaisiagae
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#18)
The bottomless backpack. How am I able to carry so much stuff?! O_o

Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
2-Apr(#19)
Alaisiagae wrote:
> The bottomless backpack. How am I able to carry so much stuff?! O_o
>
>

this seems annoying till you play a game where it's always an issue......

Alaisiagae
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader
* 2-Apr(#20)
Kommie wrote:
> Alaisiagae wrote:
>> The bottomless backpack. How am I able to carry so much stuff?! O_o
>>
>>
>
> this seems annoying till you play a game where it's always an issue......
>
>
I know, that's the paradox! If there's going to be loads of objects to collect, then I need space for it all, to heck with realism.

Or I need some pack mules to carry everything (reminds me of Dungeon Siege 1, haha).

I'm pretty sure my Morrowind character was lugging around 3 sets of armor, 50 potions, and 10 sets of cutlery. And rings. Lots of enchanted rings.

Cevil
Silver Good Trader
2-Apr(#21)
The dying character who conveniently has 5 minutes to give a speech right before he dies.

As annoying as this sometimes is I'm not sure if I would change it since those are usually some of the best bits in video games. Who doesn't like a good final speech?
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
2-Apr(#22)
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
> Saving the princess/other damsel in distress (e.g. in countless Mario games).
>
> Edit: That's hilarious that someone negged me for this. This has to be one of the
> biggest video game cliches of all time.

probably cause you said something negative about Mario

Foxhack
350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#23)
KCPenguins wrote:
> shadyfozzie wrote:
>> Watching a cut scene, dying after it, and forced to watch the same cut scene again,
>> without the chance to skip it..
>>
>
>
> I was having troubles thinking of one, but this one. My goodness, this one. Nothing
> more enfuriating than this before a tough boss fight or section, even more so if
> there is dialog. I can picture myself immaturity repeating the dialog in a grade
> school sarcastic manner.

I never beat the first Sly Cooper game because of this. If the final boss killed you, not only did you have to make it all the way back to him, you had to listen to his stupid speech. Again.
Anxiouz
900 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
2-Apr(#24)
What about your mentor/person who trained you becoming the bad guy by the end of the game?
benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
2-Apr(#25)
The evil chancellor character.

I want to see a game turn this on its head, where the king puts out a wanted ad for a new chancellor, and immediately kills everyone who applies, because no one who wants to be chancellor is ever good.
bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
3-Apr(#26)
explosive barrels
Scott
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 2 Reviews
3-Apr(#27)
The friend that betrays you.
Gypsy
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
3-Apr(#28)
Scott wrote:
> The friend that betrays you.

Usually very telegraphed as well.
bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
3-Apr(#29)
If the main path through an area has an dead-end side path, there's probably something good there.
KCPenguins
Gold Good Trader
3-Apr(#30)
bill wrote:
> explosive barrels


I love them, but it is rather silly for a cluster of enemies to hang around an explosive barrel painted bright red. Also, what is in the barrel, nitroglycerin?
Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review This user is on the site NOW (2 minutes ago)
3-Apr(#31)
bill wrote:
> If the main path through an area has an dead-end side path, there's probably something
> good there.

Or when they do this a few times, and then there is nothing for a large portion of them. Like they did it with evil intentions to waste your time. Knowing full well you would go look expecting something, so they don't put anything there.
Bleed_DukeBlue
GameTZ Gold Subscriber Triple Gold Good Trader
3-Apr(#32)
Yeah. I figured. It's weird how defensive some people are about Mario games. I've played a bunch of them, and I've enjoyed some of them, but their strength is their gameplay. Anyone looking at them with any objectivity has to admit that their storylines are weak and full of cliches. Plus, the main character is a bad stereotype of an Italian plumber. It's not exactly high art.

Kommie wrote:
> Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
>> Saving the princess/other damsel in distress (e.g. in countless Mario games).
>
>>
>> Edit: That's hilarious that someone negged me for this. This has to be one of
> the
>> biggest video game cliches of all time.
>
> probably cause you said something negative about Mario
>
>
PizzaTheHutt
Gold Good Trader Has Written 3 Reviews
* 3-Apr(#33)
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
> Anyone looking at them with any objectivity has to admit that their storylines
> are weak and full of cliches. Plus, the main character is a bad stereotype of an
> Italian plumber. It's not exactly high art.


As a big Nintendo fan I absolutely agree, they can't come up with a compelling story worth a damn in pretty much anything they do, so that's the last reason I play their games. I'd like to see anyone argue otherwise.

I was watching a video a few months ago and they talked about Super Mario Galaxy and how this guy on the team had to argue to be able to come up with some sort of backstory for Rosalina and the Lumas (he had been trying for years to add deeper story elements to Mario and Zelda games but was always getting shot down until SMG). As soon as Super Mario Galaxy 2 development was underway the first thing Miyamoto told the rest of the team was that there will be none of that backstory this time.

Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
3-Apr(#34)
The last Mario game I played and liked was Mario + Rabbids and I think even that had that Save The Princess story. I honestly don't remember, didn't really play it for the story. Peach was a PC, so I can't recall what the story was, TBH.

bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
3-Apr(#35)
All video games stories, dialog, etc. aren't very good. If I had the option to auto-skip dialog/cut-scenes, I'd use it every time.
Gypsy
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
3-Apr(#36)
bill wrote:
> All video games stories, dialog, etc. aren't very good. If I had the option to auto-skip
> dialog/cut-scenes, I'd use it every time.

You understand me at a deep level.

Disco Elysium was surprisingly entertaining however, did you try that one?
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
3-Apr(#37)
bill wrote:
> All video games stories, dialog, etc. aren't very good. If I had the option to auto-skip
> dialog/cut-scenes, I'd use it every time.

So how would you even play visual novels? Skip to the part with the choice as fast as possible?

bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
* 4-Apr(#38)
Sorry, I don't mean to derail this topic. I know many games are loved for their stories. I'm a freak for not being into that sort of thing. I still play some and have enjoyed a few, but I usually find them tedious. I'm pretty sure I'd hate Disco Elysium, though I know it won many awards and I can see how it's cool in many ways.
benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
4-Apr(#39)
In other words, VN's probably aren't bill's bag.

I generally don't enjoy them either. I thought Snatcher was for the most part quite predictable and was glad when it was over. The only ones I've really enjoyed are the Phoenix Wright games, and even those have their trudgery to get through.

I really enjoyed the story in the first Professor Layton game, but the stories of some of the sequels got pretty stupid. Good thing they had puzzles to keep me entertained. I wouldn't consider the Layton Series to be a VN, though - more of a collection of puzzles to be solved lavatory plays out.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#40)
I never really thought of Phoenix Wright as a VN really, cause when I first played it I had never heard the term. There's a lot of gameplay in it though, so is it really a VN? Clearly it's part VN, part clue finding/liar finder game.

Gypsy
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
4-Apr(#41)
Snatcher is one I enjoyed mostly because of the setting and coolness factor.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#42)
Stop reminding me that I used to have a complete copy of Snatcher and a Sega CD. That I left in Arkansas when I moved to New York. Thanks. I was also like, 13 or something.

benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
4-Apr(#43)
Kommie wrote:
> I never really thought of Phoenix Wright as a VN really, cause when I first played
> it I had never heard the term. There's a lot of gameplay in it though, so is it really
> a VN? Clearly it's part VN, part clue finding/liar finder game.

The clue finding is basically just poking the screen everywhere. Hardly counts as gameplay.

And finding lies is basically just following a dialogue tree and responding with the appropriate item/objection at the appropriate time.

Gameplaywise, it's not much different than a standard VN.
bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
4-Apr(#44)
I like story elements in a game, but I don't like just sitting there reading/listening/watching them, that feels forced and passive. If I can somehow play the story, that's best. Or, using audio clips that run as you keep exploring is decent too (e.g. Bioshock). I thought the recent God of War did a nice job of telling the story by having an NPC do it while you traveled between places.
shadyfozzie
Triple Gold Good Trader
4-Apr(#45)
Another cliche: Unskippable tutorials that don't push through the game.
Some games have great tutorials, as you play the first level but learn the controls simultaneously... Games that have tutorials that just prolong you playing are super annoying..
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#46)
shadyfozzie wrote:
> Another cliche: Unskippable tutorials that don't push through the game.
> Some games have great tutorials, as you play the first level but learn the controls
> simultaneously... Games that have tutorials that just prolong you playing are super
> annoying..

I will never beat Okami cause I get like 5 hours in, and it still feels like I'm in the tutorial section.

razeak
Double Gold Good Trader Has Written 9 Reviews
4-Apr(#47)
unskippable tutorials
benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
4-Apr(#48)
Releasing compilations of your older games for each new system, but always including pretty much the same games every single time.
JD
GameTZ Subscriber 450 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally This user is on the site NOW (4 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#49)
Beloved character that die in middle of game that you can't ever bring back

Archer
GameTZ Subscriber 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review This user is on the site NOW (2 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#50)
benstylus wrote:
> Releasing compilations of your older games for each new system, but always including
> pretty much the same games every single time.
>

Old bugs/glitches included.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
4-Apr(#51)
Archer wrote:
> benstylus wrote:
>> Releasing compilations of your older games for each new system, but always including
>> pretty much the same games every single time.
>>
>
> Old bugs/glitches included.

the EA/Activision/Bethesda special


razeak
Double Gold Good Trader Has Written 9 Reviews
4-Apr(#52)
JD wrote:
> Beloved character that die in middle of game that you can't ever bring back
>
>

Dominique in Gears
razeak
Double Gold Good Trader Has Written 9 Reviews
4-Apr(#53)
Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
> Yeah. I figured. It's weird how defensive some people are about Mario games. I've
> played a bunch of them, and I've enjoyed some of them, but their strength is their
> gameplay. Anyone looking at them with any objectivity has to admit that their storylines
> are weak and full of cliches. Plus, the main character is a bad stereotype of an
> Italian plumber. It's not exactly high art.
>
> Kommie wrote:
>> Bleed_DukeBlue wrote:
> |>> Saving the princess/other damsel in distress (e.g. in countless Mario games).
>>
> |>>
> |>> Edit: That's hilarious that someone negged me for this. This has to be one
> of
>> the
> |>> biggest video game cliches of all time.
>>
>> probably cause you said something negative about Mario
>>
>>

Japanese culture doesn't quite understand the dynamics of American race relations. Case in point Kazushi Sakuraba dressed as Mario when he fought Quinton Jackson because of Donkey Kong. He had it explained to him later.
shadyfozzie
Triple Gold Good Trader
5-Apr(#54)
More cliche now more than ever, especially on phone games:
Spending money to get upgrades and better stuff.. oh, you ran out of turns, spend $1 for 3 more.. ran out of money playing fake casino games, spend real money for more..want that special card now, spend money to get it.

Oh, and ads in free phone games that have that x so small and hard to click on that you always go to the ad page..
Alaisiagae
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader
* 5-Apr(#55)
Another cliche: the protagonist with no parents/family.

Kommie wrote:
>
> I will never beat Okami cause I get like 5 hours in, and it still feels like I'm
> in the tutorial section.
>
>
The thing about Okami is that it introduces new gameplay mechanics thoughout 90% of the game. There's the new combat moves you can buy from the dojo (laying explosive poop is the empitomy of combat prowess), but the pace at which you acquire the brush gods and weapon types is tied a lot to the story itself. Whenever you get a new brush god, there's a very brief tutorial or two (one for using the brush move in the environment, the othe for combat use). So, it's not like you get everything (all the moves, brush gods) half-way through the game; instead, it's a continual evolution. I happen to like the pacing, because it keeps things fresh and interesting for me. While it is my favorite game, I know that it's not going to be for everyone, just like some popular games aren't my cup of tea.
Scott
GameTZ Subscriber 250 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally Has Written 2 Reviews
6-Apr(#56)
bill wrote:
> All video games stories, dialog, etc. aren't very good. If I had the option to auto-skip
> dialog/cut-scenes, I'd use it every time.

I personally wouldn't say all, but I do think most video game stories/dialog are pretty bad. Most gamers seem to set their standards very low when it comes to video games for some reason, but wouldn't do the same thing for a book or a movie.
benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
7-Apr(#57)
Roguelikes/lites are still my current least favorite trend in video games.

Here's this really cool game with some fun ideas. But we didn't have the budget to make it a proper length, so we'll just randomize the level layouts, make it ridiculously difficult until you're properly powered up, and we'll trickle in ever so minor permanent upgrades after you die, so you get just that little bit further next time.

BLARG.

Just make a great game that only lasts 2 hours.

A 2 hour game that is stretched out to last 20 hours is by very definition at least 90% waste.
nonamesleft
Gold Good Trader
7-Apr(#58)
benstylus wrote:
> Roguelikes/lites are still my current least favorite trend in video games.
>
> Here's this really cool game with some fun ideas. But we didn't have the budget
> to make it a proper length, so we'll just randomize the level layouts, make it ridiculously
> difficult until you're properly powered up, and we'll trickle in ever so minor permanent
> upgrades after you die, so you get just that little bit further next time.
>
> BLARG.
>
> Just make a great game that only lasts 2 hours.
>
> A 2 hour game that is stretched out to last 20 hours is by very definition at least
> 90% waste.

Can you name some +-2 hour games that are great? (Not a rhetorical question. At the moment, Super Mario Land GB comes to mind. Less than 2 hours and pretty good.)
bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
7-Apr(#59)
I've enjoyed several roguelikes. I think you're kind of missing the point. There's a lot of fun to be had in that progression. For example, some let you choose how you get better. Thus, you're adapting to what is challenging you given your playstyle. Also, perhaps you're put in a position to play better by changing how you play. Many aren't exactly crazy-hard, it's just more that there's not much expectation of getting to the end in one run. Generated levels can be nice to mix up the play too.
benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
7-Apr(#60)
bill wrote:
> I've enjoyed several roguelikes. I think you're kind of missing the point. There's
> a lot of fun to be had in that progression. For example, some let you choose how
> you get better. Thus, you're adapting to what is challenging you given your playstyle.
> Also, perhaps you're put in a position to play better by changing how you play.
> Many aren't exactly crazy-hard, it's just more that there's not much expectation
> of getting to the end in one run. Generated levels can be nice to mix up the play
> too.

The cynical side of me says that the point for developers is it's a cost-effective way to make a game longer, so they can charge more for it. People don't want to pay $15-$20 for a 1-2 hour game, but they'll certainly do it for a 10-20 hour game.

The point for gamers is the drip-feed of ever so slight advancements leading to the "just one more try" feeling. It just doesn't work for me, and ends up cheapening the experience for me.

It's weird because I'm definitely an arcade gamer at heart, and I'll play the same stages over and over again until I beat them, and then do it again to beat my old score or time. For a well-balanced arcade style game, you start exactly at the level needed to succeed. You might improve or gain new weapons/moves as you play, but it's part of the game itself, not the part between plays. To get further, you have to get better, and it's easy to see that progress.

The progression for roguelikes is generally some combination of the character starting out too weak to reasonably beat the game, and the game starting out too difficult for you to reasonably beat it. As you continue to lose, you get stronger yourself with more health or new moves, and/or the game adds better items / loot drops to make it easier. Balance is far less important here, as the game adjusts the balance whenever you lose and unlock a new thing. Eventually, the game is intended reach equilibrium between your skill and the difficulty. And it's harder to know if you'd getting better past a certain point because a big part of that yardstick is the permanent upgrades you've started with this time around.

Also, a well designed, 100% intentionally put together level is always going to be better than a procedurally generated one, IMO. Yes, randomization may offer more replay value to some, but it never hits the same highs as the intentional design can when everything comes together cohesively. And with intention, the designer can still sprinkle in a significant amount variation to keep things fresh. Things like Darius or Out Run where you have branching level paths. Or in (at least some of) the Tenchu series, multiple enemy layouts, so your old hiding places and tactics don't always work. There are even some games that alter the difficulty based on how you play. Smash Bros classic mode raises the difficulty if you completely dominate a battle, and reduces it every time you lose. But you always know exactly what difficulty you are at, and you make it a goal to keep improving and finishing higher.
Kommie
GameTZ Subscriber Quadruple Gold Good Trader This user is on the site NOW (10 minutes ago)
7-Apr(#61)
Sounds like @benstylus hates rogue likes on the same level I hate QTE games, like anything by Quantic Dreams.

benstylus
GameTZ Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 500 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Gold Global Trader (9) Has Written 26 Reviews
7-Apr(#62)
Probably more. You actually finished yours.

Also, QTE games seem to be on a bit of a decline, while drapery roguelikes are on the ascendancy.

I'd rather play Rogue than a Roguelike/lite
bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
8-Apr(#63)
Most of the roguelikes I've played have been inexpensive ($20 or less). The ones I liked have been many 10s of hours of enjoyment. I found them consistently fun and motivating the whole time. Ultimately, I felt very satisfied when I did win. I have no doubt that I got better at playing them as I played more. It wasn't just upgrades but the upgrades were part of the fun. It's also clear to me that the developers put a lot of time into making them because they can be amazingly well-crafted and balanced (the roguelike elements being brilliantly conceived and integrated at times). It may be a cynical ploy to do less for more money by some devs, but I think for the best roguelikes it's more like high-art.

I like good level design too, but there's something also to be said for learning to adapt your play to variable situations. When a level is always the same, it becomes more about memorization. When it's variable, you have to be ready for different things to happen. I think the latter is an environment in which one is motivated to become a better overall player. It's like if you played chess but always the same game vs. playing different people all the time. The best procedurally generated levels have an element of good design to them. Making them random in a way that adds to the good design is an impressive thing for a developer to pull-off.

It's worth noting that rogue-like/lites/etc are very loosely defined and diverse. Many may not fit what we're talking about here. Other aspects of a game matter more to whether I enjoy it. I didn't used to think much of rogue-likes, despite putting many hours into Rogue and Nethack in the past. In recent years, I've played some that I really loved. Though, at the same time, many of the most popular roguelikes I haven't been able to get into.

The 3 that come to mind (that I loved and played a lot) are: Slay the Spire (a card game), Everspace (3d space shooter), and Mooncrash (add-on for Prey the FPS). They have almost nothing in common besides having roguelike elements. I get the impression were mostly playing different sorts of games and thus it's unlikely I could recommend something you'd be into.

Anyway, too each his own. But I think you may be surprised someday by how good a rogue-like can be if it clicks with what you enjoy. It's really just another way to wrap up a lot of common gaming elements into a new package that can offer new ways to innovate as well. Many are able to incorporate story elements in clever was as well. I agree that your description of playing arcade games is really not that different from a roguelike. Roguelike acknowledge that gamers replay the same part of a game then have some fun with that aspect of the experience.



bill
GameTZ Gold Subscriber GameTZ Full Moderator 600 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 26 Reviews
8-Apr(#64)
I dislike QTE too. One of the nice things I've found recently is that games will sometimes have "accessibility" options that allow you to eliminate QTE stuff from otherwise enjoyable games.

Topic   Worst cliches in video games