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| Author | Message |
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bill
  
 
 
| #1 posted April 22, 2008 at 2:41pm (EDT)
edited April 22, 2008 at 3:07pm (EDT) |
This is an experimental new forum where pending trades of new users will get posted.
The idea behind this forum is to give the GameTZ community a chance to review these pending trades and spot problems or high risk situations before they get out of hand and people get ripped off.
Otherwise, this is a normal public forum where anyone can post. Feel free to post right in the topic where the automated pending posts are made, if you want to make a comment about it. The idea is that a group will form here that looks over these and develops a better understanding of how these situations happen. Hopefully, we can prevent problems.
Presumably, if someone sees a trade get pended that looks risky, they can PM the new user to warn them. If you do this, post in the topic where the pending trade got posted to let other people know you've already warned the new user.
The automated pending trade posts are grouped in topics by each new user. Topics will get re-used if that new user makes more than one pending trade. The new user will show up as the owner of that topics as well. Note that while the automated posted are apparently created by the new user, they did not make the post and are probably not reading this forum. So, using something like a PM or finding them in chat is how you should contact them.
This is experiment, a work in progress. If you have suggestions, feel free to post them here. I'll sticky this topic.
Thanks. |
invisibleink
| | #2 posted April 22, 2008 at 3:02pm (EDT) |
FOR THE NOObZ!!!!!!!!!!!!
 |
John
 
| | #3 posted April 22, 2008 at 3:19pm (EDT) |
So, is the criteria just that either user in the trade would have the  icon? Or are number of trades or anything involved? Thanks.
- John...
"Yes, but people that are quiet shoot up schools.
Do you really want him to own a dog that shoots up a school?"
- Adam |
thegill321
| | #4 posted April 22, 2008 at 3:48pm (EDT) |
noobie doobie doo |
mmm40x
 
 
| | #5 posted April 22, 2008 at 11:12pm (EDT) |
So do we post here or PM someone if they are in danger? |
Boss
 
| #6 posted April 22, 2008 at 11:42pm (EDT)
edited April 22, 2008 at 11:46pm (EDT) |
Interesting...
Can you turn on the feature that allows people watching this forum to be alerted of new posts in the All my new replies section? (Or is this already on here?)
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bill
| | #7 posted April 23, 2008 at 7:26am (EDT) |
John wrote:
> So, is the criteria just that either user in the trade would have the icon?
Yes.
Also, if both traders are new, the pending will get posted twice (once in each of their topics).
> So do we post here or PM someone if they are in danger?
My thinking is that people should PM the person in danger directly. But, that's really just a suggestion. If people think of a better way, that's fine too.
> Can you turn on the feature that allows people watching this forum
> to be alerted of new posts in the All my new replies section?
I can turn that on... I'm not sure if everyone would want that, but maybe I'll try it and see how it goes. |
John
| #8 posted April 23, 2008 at 11:08am (EDT)
edited April 23, 2008 at 11:08am (EDT) |
Bill -- how about adding completed trades to the little summary too? So, instead of:
| JoeUser has 2 pending trade(s). |
...it would be:
| JoeUser has 2 pending trade(s) and 5 completed trade(s). |
I think it helps to be able to quickly know if the newbie has any other trades already under their belt.
- John...
"Yes, but people that are quiet shoot up schools.
Do you really want him to own a dog that shoots up a school?"
- Adam |
BoB
| | #9 posted April 23, 2008 at 11:14am (EDT) |
good point
Bawitdaba da bang a dang diggy diggy diggy said the boogy said up jump the boogy |
bill
| | #10 posted April 23, 2008 at 11:56am (EDT) |
'k |
Uuaww
| | #11 posted April 23, 2008 at 5:16pm (EDT) |
I call international trade expert. |
Millington
 
| | #12 posted April 23, 2008 at 8:00pm (EDT) |
bill is there a way to not see every single post in this forum in my updates? this is crazy
-its the truth |
bill
| | #13 posted April 24, 2008 at 6:59am (EDT) |
Boss likes it that way... I could tie it to the user forum setting, do you turn that off? |
Boss
| | #14 posted April 24, 2008 at 8:14pm (EDT) |
How does this post stay ontop... sticky? O_O
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mmm40x
| | #15 posted April 24, 2008 at 8:50pm (EDT) |
Magic! |
DeputySchrute
 
| | #16 posted April 24, 2008 at 9:12pm (EDT) |
While I understand the purpose of this forum and think its a great idea to watch over new traders and try to pinpoint potential problems, shouldn't the responsibility of PMing traders involved in questionable or risky trades be from preestablished approved traders? Just because someone has a star next to their name doesn't mean they should be playing watchdog over the other traders. Shouldn't their be some kind of criteria to qualify a person as an "appropriate" mediator in these matters (such as length of service, trades exceeding xxx, feedback rating of xx%)?
I would be extremely annoyed as a new user to the site to be receiving PMs from people with no real qualifications to mediate my trade other than the fact they happened across this forum and felt the need to inject themself into the process. Just my two cents.
 |
gameplayer9
(frozen)
| | #17 posted April 24, 2008 at 9:56pm (EDT) |
--
act stupid forum |
bill
| #18 posted April 25, 2008 at 7:15am (EDT)
edited April 25, 2008 at 7:15am (EDT) |
DeputySchrute - I'm more concerned that there's just too much work to do here. So, I feel like we probably can't be picky about who does it.
But, yeah, maybe the whole idea is bad. I just thought I'd try it.
I think it's showing how big the potential problem is. We're seeing several questionable trades a day, it seems. |
bill
| | #19 posted April 25, 2008 at 7:16am (EDT) |
Millington wrote:
> bill is there a way to not see every single post in this forum in
> my updates? this is crazy
I turned this off, sorry Boss. |
Boss
| | #20 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:05am (EDT) |
bill wrote:
> Millington wrote:
>> bill is there a way to not see every single post in this forum
> in
>> my updates? this is crazy
>
>
> I turned this off, sorry Boss.
Eh its okay I guess it can be a lot with the amount of trades pending. I can always just go straight to the forum to see the new posts so I am not devastated but thanks for turning it on for the short time.  |
_kate_
 
| | #21 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:07am (EDT) |
bill wrote:
> DeputySchrute - I'm more concerned that there's just too much work
> to do here. So, I feel like we probably can't be picky about who
> does it.
>
> But, yeah, maybe the whole idea is bad. I just thought I'd try it.
>
> I think it's showing how big the potential problem is. We're seeing
> several questionable trades a day, it seems.
Well I wouldn't say that the Noob_Pendings forum is a bad idea. Perhaps more like over-whelming, as you said previously, and the only reason it really becomes over-whelming is because it's something else that needs to be policed. Each of us here has a different personal standard regarding values and fairness, as well as the degree to which the site recommendations should be applied, and as such we all bring that personal standard into the mix. This results in the group of helpers needing to be policed because someone has to ensure that they too are keeping a reasonable standard for the new traders they are trying to help.
I am wondering if perhaps the best solution to this issue would be to find a way to simply block new users from trading with one another. I understand that the concept of this place is to have an open community where folks can do almost anything they want, but I also think that it would have the potential to weed out the con artists (because most of them try to get in and out as quickly as they can) from the serious traders and give an over-all healthier community.
I'm sure there are other ways to remedy this problem, as well. We just haven't thought of them yet.
 |
bill
| #22 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:13am (EDT)
edited April 25, 2008 at 8:15am (EDT) |
Someone else suggested that before... my response was something like:
I can block them from reporting trades (using the offer/trade system), but I can't actually block them from trading. It may seem that these are the same thing, but to a new user who is not familiar with the system, blocking them from using it would not be much of a hurdle. We've already seen it happen (someone made a trade in a PM with a scammer). Essentially, all that needs to happen is for the scammer to convince them to make the trade. Doing it in our system is fairly optional. A scammer may actually prefer that it not get reported so there's no evidence.
Also, many trades between noobs go off just fine. Is this issue so important that we want to block lots of legit trades? |
John
| | #23 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:26am (EDT) |
DeputySchrute wrote:
> I would be extremely annoyed as a new user to the site to be receiving
> PMs from people with no real qualifications to mediate my trade other
No one is mediating anything here. They do not have any "power" to step in or stop anything. They make no final decisions. They do not have the power to say "you may not do this trade."
People are sending PMs to the person saying "Hey, just so you know, you might want to be careful about this because..."
That's all. That isn't mediating trades. It's offering friendly advice.
- John...
"Yes, but people that are quiet shoot up schools.
Do you really want him to own a dog that shoots up a school?"
- Adam |
BoB
| | #24 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:37am (EDT) |
i understand the idea of blocking new traders from trading with each other but i think they need to use some common sense of their own.after this do we open a people that dont brush their teeth regularly thread/forum?there are several places here where it says dont do one thing or another and that often gets overlooked or just plain ignored.the problem is that there a million younger people that drift through here and the only thing on their mind is getting some video games anyway they can while at the same time theres an equal group of sleazy little craps that prey on that desire,anything you do to keep the two seperated they will find a way to slip around and rip off over eager new traders anyway.so...lets figure a way too make people not act retarded when it comes to acquiring shiny new toys.k?get on that.
Bawitdaba da bang a dang diggy diggy diggy said the boogy said up jump the boogy |
_kate_
| #25 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:47am (EDT)
edited April 25, 2008 at 8:53am (EDT) |
bill wrote:
> Someone else suggested that before... my response was something like:
>
> I can block them from reporting trades (using the offer/trade system),
> but I can't actually block them from trading. It may seem that these
> are the same thing, but to a new user who is not familiar with the
> system, blocking them from using it would not be much of a hurdle.
> We've already seen it happen (someone made a trade in a PM with a
> scammer). Essentially, all that needs to happen is for the scammer
> to convince them to make the trade. Doing it in our system is fairly
> optional. A scammer may actually prefer that it not get reported
> so there's no evidence.
>
> Also, many trades between noobs go off just fine. Is this issue so
> important that we want to block lots of legit trades?
Well in this regard, if the users were trading outside of the actual trading system, then it would truly be their own fault (as callous as that may sound). The purpose of a place like this is to have a trading system wherein people can interact to prevent scamming, and if people join up here and make the foolish choice of working outside of the system then they are simply going to have to accept the consequences of their actions. I don't like the thought at all, because as you said, there would be no evidence against someone who got taken, but I still feel it's something to keep in the back of one's mind and perhaps toss around until a more useful variation of the base concept is developed. I'm sure there's something in there that would be a reasonable medium ground that none of us have struck yet.
Being someone who violated the "Don't trade with other new users" policy when I started here (oops, lol), I can fully agree that a lot of these go off without a hitch, which of course brings us to another wall. Of course we don't want to block off legit trades. I suppose it's more a matter of how many go bad versus how many go good. If the bad to good ratio is 1:2, then we have enough of a problem that I'd say yes, maybe we should block legit trades to prevent bad ones. After all, that would be a third of new traders getting taken. If, however, the ratio is something more like 1:24... well then it's not really that different from anyone else on the site and I don't know why we've all been up in arms in the first place.
Do you have a fairly easy method at your disposal for gathering up that kind of information? Or would it be a very long, arduous process? Honestly, I think that if we can put some figures on the issues that are being dealt with, it might give us all a better idea of the problem we're looking at, and the degree to which we should be trying to resolve the issue.
Edit: Typos.
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_kate_
| | #26 posted April 25, 2008 at 8:48am (EDT) |
BoB, I love you. I'm moving to Texas just to hear your lectures on stupid people.
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bill
| | #27 posted April 25, 2008 at 9:55am (EDT) |
I did some stats on this here (April 9, 2008)
> ...Here are some stats. In the last 30 days, 1880
> completed trades where made. 280 involved a new users (new means created account within last 2 months). So, that's about 15% of trades involving a new
> user. 18 of those 280 trades were trades between 2 new users. If we did what you're proposing, that's 18 legit/good trades we would have blocked.
It's harder to count bad trades by noobs over the same period, but we did have an unusually high number of them in the last couple months, apparently.
Another idea that often comes up is limiting the number of pendings people can have.
I don't like either idea because they hurt legit traders. Like BoB is saying, people just do risky things and that's their choice. I don't like the idea of limiting other people because of this.
Part of me thinks we should just accept the scamming as a fact of life. We'll deal with it as it happens. But, we may not have the power to stop it or even reduce the number much. The warnings we put up should be enough. If people ignore it, that's their choice.
I'd rather have an open system than a tightly controlled one, for various reasons. |
_kate_
| | #28 posted April 25, 2008 at 10:30am (EDT) |
Thanks for the link to that other thread. I took some time to read that and get up to speed on what's already been discussed so we're not just beating a dead horse, so to speak.
There have been a lot of valid points presented regarding the whole debate, but... in the end it really does seem to boil down to either having everyone suffer for the actions of a few, or letting the same types of people make the same mistakes that have been presented a dozen times before.
Just the same, it's going to be something that I keep in the back of my mind in the hopes that some kind of sensible solution hits me like a half-brick to the skull. I hold steadfast to my statement about there being a middle ground that hasn't occurred to any of us yet. 
|
bill
| | #29 posted April 25, 2008 at 10:48am (EDT) |
A vague hope I have for this forum is that someone will think of some new idea that most of us think is worthwhile. We'll see. |
mmm40x
| | #30 posted April 25, 2008 at 11:55am (EDT) |
People hate to click. Make them go through a series of, say, 20 clicks before the trade enters a pending state. Ask them along the way, "Are you sure you want to do the trade?" click "Are you positive?" click "This is a real butt head move, ya know?" click.......
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Uuaww
| | #31 posted April 25, 2008 at 12:32pm (EDT) |
mmm40x wrote:
> People hate to click. Make them go through a series of, say, 20 clicks
> before the trade enters a pending state. Ask them along the way, "Are
> you sure you want to do the trade?" click "Are you positive?" click
> "This is a real butt head move, ya know?" click.......
>
>
>
The 4 clicks already to make a trade is the reason I don't trade anymore... bad idea |
mmm40x
| | #32 posted April 25, 2008 at 2:16pm (EDT) |
Uuaww wrote:
> mmm40x wrote:
>> People hate to click. Make them go through a series
> of, say, 20 clicks
>> before the trade enters a pending state. Ask them
> along the way, "Are
>> you sure you want to do the trade?" click "Are you
> positive?" click
>> "This is a real butt head move, ya know?" click.......
>>
>>
>>
>
> The 4 clicks already to make a trade is the reason
> I don't trade anymore... bad idea
It was said tongue in cheek. |
Xena
| | #33 posted April 25, 2008 at 2:56pm (EDT) |
mmm40x wrote:
> People hate to click. Make them go through a series of, say, 20 clicks
> before the trade enters a pending state. Ask them along the way, "Are
> you sure you want to do the trade?" click "Are you positive?" click
> "This is a real butt head move, ya know?" click.......
LOL!
Visit the Guild Wars Forum |
_kate_
| #34 posted April 27, 2008 at 2:50pm (EDT)
edited April 27, 2008 at 2:50pm (EDT) |
Holy crap. Don't check this forum for a day and a half and there are a billion new trades listed. Oy.
|
bill
| | #35 posted April 27, 2008 at 4:46pm (EDT) |
I know, I'm feeling fire-hosed. |
John
| | #36 posted April 27, 2008 at 7:25pm (EDT) |
While it is a bit overwhelming, it is cool to see that newbies are actually doing so many trades.
- John...
"Yes, but people that are quiet shoot up schools.
Do you really want him to own a dog that shoots up a school?"
- Adam |
Boss
| | #37 posted April 29, 2008 at 7:07pm (EDT) |
bill please check out -> http://gametz.com/forum/Noob_Pendings/topic/300015... when you have a second if you have not already. k thx bye |
Noltillian
 
| | #38 posted April 29, 2008 at 7:10pm (EDT) |
Let me simplify.
User with multiple accounts: Cuban133, driz_man014, MarioMan, yankeesfan1224, & Isabella.
Also most likely includes: Chizzo7 & bmack9182.
Also possibly including: LoPo87.
This guy is still pumping out the accounts so this list will probably keep growing.
 |
mmm40x
| | #39 posted April 29, 2008 at 7:19pm (EDT) |
Sheesh. Guess I should not have told him he would have to send first to people until he was established here and had a good rep. when he tried to sell me his Wii bundle. Some how he heard: "Make a bunch of fake accounts and get fake feedback"  |
JMorgan14
BTRs
| | #40 posted April 29, 2008 at 7:22pm (EDT) |
Noltillian wrote:
> Let me simplify.
>
> User with multiple accounts: Cuban133, driz_man014, MarioMan, yankeesfan1224,
> & Isabella.
>
> Also most likely includes: Chizzo7 & bmack9182.
>
> Also possibly including: LoPo87.
>
> This guy is still pumping out the accounts so this list will probably
> keep growing.
>
>
4 of those are his for sure
MarioMan is even nice enough to trade an xbox 360 elite for 250$
Overnight
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