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| Author | Message |
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slyfishbone
  
| #1 posted May 19, 2009 at 11:25pm (EST)
edited May 19, 2009 at 11:27pm (EST) |
I was hooking up the HDMI cable from my PS3 to my Sony rear projection LCD HDTV and as soon as the connector and cable touched it shot out a spark and popped pretty loud. Now when I try to turn on the TV the fan cuts on for a few seconds then everything goes dead and the power light blinks red 2 times, then pauses for a few seconds and blinks 2 more times and just keeps going like that. I just unplugged it since I was afraid it was some kind of short. Its NOT the lamp replacement light, its the power light that's flashing so its not the bulb. 2 questions... How would plugging in an HDMI cable do this? and will it cost so much to fix that I'd be better of getting a new TV? Also I have no idea if it fried my PS3 too since I don't have a tv now to check it. Any help/advice/smart-ass remarks will be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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John
  
| | #2 posted May 19, 2009 at 11:36pm (EST) |
Can you double-check the flashing? Is it 2 blinks, pause, 2 blinks -- and then a LONG pause before it repeats? Or is it just a constant 2 flashes, pause, 2 flashes, same pause, 2 flashes, same pause, and so on?
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #3 posted May 20, 2009 at 12:11am (EST) |
Ok I checked and its 2 quick blinks then about a 3 second pause then 2 more then 3 seconds then 2 more... There are no longer or shorter pauses. It'll just keep that up till I unplug it again. BTW heres the model number if that helps... kdf 50e2000
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Rictor
| | #4 posted May 20, 2009 at 11:36am (EST) |
Yikes, I have that same TV. Was the TV turned on when you plugged in the HDMI? Was the PS3 turned on? Were one or both plugged in? The spark probably means that there is bad wiring somewhere, most likely in your wall outlet, but one of your devices could also be at fault. I'd get an electrician to come check your wiring for you before plugging in another expensive TV.
Anything broken on that TV other than the lamp, it's probably cheaper just to buy a new one. TV repairs start at $300 around here...considering that the TV is worth less than $500 used at this point (can probably fine one like it on Craigslist or look for local Ebay auctions), probably cheaper just to buy a replacement. |
John
| | #5 posted May 20, 2009 at 1:45pm (EST) |
Actually, the spark was probably static discharge -- that's my guess, at least.
I did some searching and can't find the service manual for the LA-4 Chassis that you have (without paying for it) -- and couldn't find any info on what the two flashes error code means. But, if you have more time than I, you could try to find some more info online.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| #6 posted May 20, 2009 at 1:47pm (EST)
edited May 20, 2009 at 1:48pm (EST) |
I hadn't thought of the outlet thing. I just bought this older house and it had all 2 pronged outlets. I spoke to an electrician and the building inspector and both said you can put the three pronged outlets in but you just won't have a neutral wire. Both said everything should be fine though. I have replaced all the outlets like this and none of the others have caused any problems. The TV was on but I turned it off and tried again and got the same reaction. The PS3 was in standby mode. I guess I need to find someone that knows home electrical and electronics. But enen if its the outlet why would the hdmi carry a current like that?
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John
| | #7 posted May 20, 2009 at 3:07pm (EST) |
Wait wait... What?
Please explain more about your electrical situation. You had two-prong outlets and you replaced them with 3-prong ones? And then just didn't hook up the ground? Is that correct??
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
John
| | #8 posted May 20, 2009 at 3:08pm (EST) |
Note that I still maintain that there was no "current" or other significant surge in the HDMI itself. It was likely just static discharge.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #9 posted May 20, 2009 at 6:19pm (EST) |
Yeah that right on the outlets, its an older house built before the ground/neutral wire was required. So it only has 2 black and 2 white, no bare or green wire at each outlet. Apparently I got some bad advice from my electrician and the building inspector that went over the house before I bought it.They both told me it should be fine I just wouldn't have a nuetral. They kind of explained it as the neutral just gave added protection and wasn't actually necessary to operate equipment.
I went by a repair shop and the guy there said there is some current on HDMI but a lack of a ground most likely caused it to carry too much. I'm taking the TV to the shop tomorrow so thats just a lesson learned, but I need to figure out what to do about the wiring situation now. I can't afford to rewire the whole house  . Would a good surge protector solve the problem? I also read that you can replace the 2 prong outlets with GFIC outlets in a case like mine where no ground wire is present.
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John
| | #10 posted May 20, 2009 at 10:46pm (EST) |
Yeah, that's some crazy stuff. Completely against code. The "wouldn't have a neutral" line makes no sense at all either.
In any case, with no ground, static discharge could cause some damage like this actually. (Even WITH a ground, it might -- but it would be much less likely with a grounded plug).
So -- does your TV have a 3-prong plug or 2-prong?
You can do some stuff with GFCI -- but I'm not familiar with the ungrounded stuff. But I remember hearing people talking about it -- I'm sure some Google searches would help. 
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #11 posted May 21, 2009 at 12:08am (EST) |
the tv is 2 prong and has been working for about a month without any problems. Its plugged in on an adjacent wall from the outlet I used with the PS3. I had a friend come by who is also an electrician and he felt pretty sure the lack of a ground wouldn't have caused it because the white wire (which is actually the neutral) ties in to the same place in the panel that the ground would. I went to Lowes and bought a tester and checked all the plugs I replaced and all show as an open ground except for the one I used for the PS3. It showed as a hot-neutral reverse so apparently I got the black and white crossed on that one. That has to be the problem but I still don't see how the hdmi did it. That seems more like a component problem that a wiring problem. Just the joys of home ownership I guess 
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John
| | #12 posted May 21, 2009 at 9:38am (EST) |
slyfishbone wrote:
> the tv is 2 prong and has been working for about a month without any
> problems. Its plugged in on an adjacent wall from the outlet I used
> with the PS3. I had a friend come by who is also an electrician and
> he felt pretty sure the lack of a ground wouldn't have caused it because
> the white wire (which is actually the neutral) ties in to the same
> place in the panel that the ground would.
True -- but tends to not disipate static in the same way. But, that being said, since the TV itself is two prong, none of this matters -- as having a properly grounded outlet wouldn't have made ANY difference at all. So, the point there is moot.
I was just concerned that you had converted two-wire outlets into three-wire when they aren't really grounded. There are some code issues there. Not that I'm a code follower myself all the time -- but the point is that, one day, someone that doesn't know will assume that those are properly grounded outlets when they aren't. That could become a problem in the future. But, again, completely unrelated to your TV problem.
I personally think you just had some incredibly bad luck with static.
> I went to Lowes and bought
> a tester and checked all the plugs I replaced and all show as an open
> ground except for the one I used for the PS3.
What did you replace them with? How did you wire them? They were open ground because you don't have a grounding wire in the wall. So how did you fix this?
> It showed as a hot-neutral
> reverse so apparently I got the black and white crossed on that one.
Yeah, probably not part of the problem though. It would really only effect safety issues with polarized devices. It wouldn't cause the issue that you had here -- and it wouldn't have changed any static-related issues if that was the problem either.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #13 posted May 21, 2009 at 9:00pm (EST) |
John wrote:
> I personally think you just had some incredibly bad luck
> with static.
>
It just got worse, I hooked up the ps3 to a borrowed tv today and its also toast
>
> What did you replace them with? How did you wire them?
> They were open ground because you don't have a grounding
> wire in the wall. So how did you fix this?
>
I just replaced the old 2 prong outlets with new ones of the 3 prong variety. I hooked the black hot wires up to the brass side and the white neutrals up to the silvery side. The green grounding screw is just left empty as there is no wire to hook up there. I realize its not up to code but the 50 year old outlets were painted over several times and were in all around bad shape. They also wouldn't accept the newer 2 prong plugs with one wide and one narrow prong because they were so old they only had two narrow openings
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John
| | #14 posted May 22, 2009 at 8:39am (EST) |
slyfishbone wrote:
> I just replaced the old 2 prong outlets with new ones of the 3 prong
> variety. I hooked the black hot wires up to the brass side and the
> white neutrals up to the silvery side. The green grounding screw is
> just left empty as there is no wire to hook up there.
Ok -- got ya. I actually misread what you said before. You said that you took all of them that needed repair and replaced them. For some reason, I thought you said that you took the open ground ones and fixed THOSE ones -- and I didn't understand how. Now I see what you meant. That makes sense.
Also, just to note it for knowledge in the future to make sure you understand... When you have two whites and two blacks coming in, one set of each is from the power source (i.e. your circuit breaker box/panel or another outlet eventually wired to the original power source) and the other set goes to some other outlet further down the line. So, they are chained together. Eventually, at the end of a chain, you'll have just one white and one black (which will have come from the previous outlet up the line).
Just in case you were unaware of what is going on there.
> I realize its
> not up to code but the 50 year old outlets were painted over several
> times and were in all around bad shape.
Indeed. And if you aren't using devices with a ground plug, it likely doesn't matter much -- as long as people are aware.
> They also wouldn't accept
> the newer 2 prong plugs with one wide and one narrow prong because
> they were so old they only had two narrow openings
Indeed -- annoying when the polarized plugs won't go in.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
John
| | #15 posted May 22, 2009 at 8:39am (EST) |
Oh -- and sucky about your PS3. 
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| #16 posted May 23, 2009 at 12:12am (EST)
edited May 23, 2009 at 12:16am (EST) |
I took that bad outlet out last night and it actually has 3 sets of wires to it. I remember now that it was different from the rest but didn't think much of it at the time because that electrician told me just to put everything together like they came apart.. I have no idea where the extra B&W wires go but my friend who's an electrician is going to come by later this weekend to help figure it out. What exactly would the extra B&W be for and how would that show up as a hot/neutral reverse? They are all actually on the correct sides, Black to brass and white to silver.
BTW thanks for helping me with this
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John
| | #17 posted May 23, 2009 at 10:40am (EST) |
The extra would just be going to another device. You don't have to just chain them one by one -- sometimes, people will connect multiple things to one outlet. So, one set might go to another outlet -- and another set might go to a light or something. So, not that weird to have three sets of wires connected to an outlet -- especially in an older home.
Again, whatever comes in, only one of those is coming IN with power -- the others are just going OUT to provide power to the next outlet/thing down the line.
So, in a situation like that, what I would do is disconnect them all -- separate them so that nothing is touching -- and turn the power back on at the breaker. Then, I'd take a meter and determine which one is the live one. Your friend may likely do that.
As for the hot/neutral reverse -- it is probably just reversed at the outlet UP the line closer to the breaker panel. So, it looks reverse at your outlet because they reversed it at the one before this one. If your hot/neutral is reversed at the outlet -- but you have the colors going to the right places on the outlet -- then, somewhere UP the line, they are probably backwards is all.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #18 posted May 23, 2009 at 2:45pm (EST) |
Ok gotcha, I just heard back from the shop and its going to be $590 to fix it (just for the tv not the ps3) but that includes a new lamp. Its 2 years old so I figured it was about due for a new one anyway. Do you think its worth that to fix. I doubt I can get a new one for anywhere near that in the 50"+ range
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John
| | #19 posted May 23, 2009 at 3:14pm (EST) |
That's hard to say -- It'd be difficult for me to make the call on that one.
If it were me, I'd want something a little bigger than 50" (I have a 57" now). So, if mind died today, I'd likely go with something such as the Samsung 61" LED-engine DLP. Last I checked, I think I saw it under $1600 on sale.
But, again, you're in a bad spot -- not sure if I'd want to dump $600 into a 2-year-old TV -- but also not sure I'd want to pony up another $1000 for a new one!
Sorry.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #20 posted May 23, 2009 at 10:49pm (EST) |
I guess I'll get it fixed. I've been wanting to get a plasma for a while but can't afford one like I want yet. I was going to used this one in another room once I upgraded my whole setup but now I'll havwe to wait. I found this link that sounds like what happened to me but the answer guy on the site doesn't seem to sure what happened either.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-...
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John
| | #21 posted May 24, 2009 at 7:30pm (EST) |
Yeah, but that guy deserved it since he was trying to connect a PS3 to an HDTV using composite video! Seriously, you do that and the Technology Fairies just fry your crap because you don't deserve it. 
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
John
| | #22 posted May 24, 2009 at 7:31pm (EST) |
Also, jokes aside, I don't think that applies to you -- because neither your TV nor your PS3 have a 3-prong plug, right? Therefore, it matters not if your outlet was grounded or not. And the fact that the polarization may have been reversed also shouldn't make a difference in this case, IMO. Just to note it.
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #23 posted May 24, 2009 at 9:12pm (EST) |
the ps3 has a 3 prong plug but not the tv. Isn't the extra ground for just safety so if there is a spike it grounds through that wire instead through you. Like if the appliance or whatever has a metal casing. It wouldn't have anything to do with what happened to me right?
In nutshell here's what I got...
3 prong plug on ps3 + hot/neutral reverse and no ground on the ps3 outlet + 2 prong plug on the tv + normal polarity and ground on the tv outlet = fireworks and about $1500 of dead equipment
I've gone through the house and checked all the outlets I replaced, and though there are no third wires for ground in any of them I found 2 that show up as grounded. One of those is the one the TV was in when this happened. How can those two be grounded without that third wire?
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John
| | #24 posted May 24, 2009 at 11:15pm (EST) |
slyfishbone wrote:
> the ps3 has a 3 prong plug but not the tv.
Ok -- I had missed that before.
> Isn't the extra ground
> for just safety so if there is a spike it grounds through that wire
> instead through you. Like if the appliance or whatever has a metal
> casing. It wouldn't have anything to do with what happened to me right?
In general, yes, that is what it is for. But, inside the unit, it is actually probably grounded to the case itself. This means that static buildup can be reduced or eliminated through the ground.
So, it actually COULD be related to what happened. If it was static discharge (and that IS still my best guess), then it might not have occurred if the PS3 had been properly grounded. In general, the outer shielding of the plug on HDMI and other such cables are grounded -- so, if the plug was grounded and those are internally connected (which is likely), then it could have fairly easily removed that static discharge.
> 3 prong plug on ps3 + hot/neutral reverse and no ground on the ps3
> outlet + 2 prong plug on the tv + normal polarity and ground on the
> tv outlet = fireworks and about $1500 of dead equipment
Yeah, I'm still guessing static discharge, in general. I don't think the hot/neutral reverse would have made a difference unless you had some other problem (i.e. some sort of short) -- which seems unlikely at this point.
> I've gone through the house and checked all the outlets I replaced,
> and though there are no third wires for ground in any of them I found
> 2 that show up as grounded. One of those is the one the TV was in
> when this happened. How can those two be grounded without that third
> wire?
Old wiring often used metal-shielded tubing (I forget what it is called -- Romex maybe?). If that shielded casing goes all the way back to the panel, then it could act as a ground and would explain why the outlet appears grounded even if there is nothing attached to that wire (because the screws that connect the outlet to the metal housing in the wall would also act as a ground).
- John...
Be sure to check out the new WANTED FORUM! |
slyfishbone
| | #25 posted May 30, 2009 at 9:21am (EST) |
I contacted sony and they are going to check out the system to see if it was faulty and if so they will fix/replace it and reimburse me for the tv repairs. If its fine then they will fix/replace it for $149 and of course the tv is on me.
I did get my electrician friend to come by and we checked everything thing on that circuit and everything all the way back to the panel was fine. When we were done we checked the outlet in question again and the hot neutral reverse we originally found was back to normal. Apparently we jiggled a wire or something somewhere that was causing the problem. Just to be safe I bought a roll of ground wire and I'm going to ground as many of the outlets as I can with that.
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