| | | Author | Message |
|---|
Guru
  
| | #1 posted May 30, 2008 at 8:19pm (EST) |
This topic had many older posts which were moved here:
http://gametz.com/forum/VideoGame_Discussion/topic...
| DR_SPOCK
| | #2 posted May 30, 2008 at 8:19pm (EST) |
NERV wrote:
> Sooo, Shinobi is harder then Ninja Gaiden?
>
>
> I could never handle it then.
Yes, without question.
Even Admiral cannot deny the TATE
eBay Listings
Amazon Storefront | benstylus
(frozen)
| #3 posted May 30, 2008 at 8:25pm (EST)
edited May 30, 2008 at 8:25pm (EST) |
DR_SPOCK wrote:
> Admiral wrote:
>> DR_SPOCK wrote:
> |>> You've got to explain yourself
> |>> on Shinobi though. I will not stand for Shinobi hate.
> |>>
> |>>
>>
>> I didn't HATE it really. The biggest problems I had were repetitive
>> enemies, repetitive gameplay, repetitive levels, and average graphics.
>>
>> Did I mention repetitive? Games like God of War, Rygar, etc did
> the
>> 3D action SO much better than Shinobi. If it were the only game
> of
>> its type on the PS2, I could deal with it. But IMO, there is no
> point
>> in playing it.
>
> But none of those have the TATE System, which MAKES the game. No other
> 3D action games have even attempted something similar, much less succeeded
> in the way that Shinobi did. The TATE System changes the entire dynamic
> of combat, not unlike the way the polarity system in Ikaruga changed
> the dynamic of the top-down shooter. The environments aren't spectacular
> and the enemies do get repetitive, but the gameplay is so well executed
> that those things are trivial. A skilled played can defeat bosses
> in one-two hits using the TATE, while a lesser player could take much
> much longer to accomplish the same task. TATE = genius.
>
> I also loved that Shinobi required the player to become better. Typically,
> you'll get new power-ups or weapons as the game progresses so you're
> more able to battle more difficult enemies, but with Shinobi this
> did not happen. The game became increasingly difficult and you were
> still stuck with the same sword and combat maneuvers, which forces
> you to become better and utilize the TATE system.
Don't forget it's not just no powerups, but your sword will kill you if you just stand around. Son not only do you have to get better, there is an immediate sense of urgency - you have to move fast or your own blade will consume you.
Ryu Hayabusa never had to deal with that, therefore Ninja Gaiden is for pussies.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | DR_SPOCK
| | #4 posted May 30, 2008 at 9:16pm (EST) |
benstylus wrote:
> DR_SPOCK wrote:
>> Admiral wrote:
> |>> DR_SPOCK wrote:
>> |>> You've got to explain yourself
>> |>> on Shinobi though. I will not stand for Shinobi hate.
>> |>>
>> |>>
> |>>
> |>> I didn't HATE it really. The biggest problems I had were repetitive
> |>> enemies, repetitive gameplay, repetitive levels, and average graphics.
> |>>
> |>> Did I mention repetitive? Games like God of War, Rygar, etc did
>> the
> |>> 3D action SO much better than Shinobi. If it were the only game
>> of
> |>> its type on the PS2, I could deal with it. But IMO, there is no
>> point
> |>> in playing it.
>>
>> But none of those have the TATE System, which MAKES the game. No
> other
>> 3D action games have even attempted something similar, much less
> succeeded
>> in the way that Shinobi did. The TATE System changes the entire
> dynamic
>> of combat, not unlike the way the polarity system in Ikaruga changed
>> the dynamic of the top-down shooter. The environments aren't spectacular
>> and the enemies do get repetitive, but the gameplay is so well
> executed
>> that those things are trivial. A skilled played can defeat bosses
>> in one-two hits using the TATE, while a lesser player could take
> much
>> much longer to accomplish the same task. TATE = genius.
>>
>> I also loved that Shinobi required the player to become better.
> Typically,
>> you'll get new power-ups or weapons as the game progresses so you're
>> more able to battle more difficult enemies, but with Shinobi this
>> did not happen. The game became increasingly difficult and you
> were
>> still stuck with the same sword and combat maneuvers, which forces
>> you to become better and utilize the TATE system.
>
> Don't forget it's not just no powerups, but your sword will kill you
> if you just stand around. Son not only do you have to get better,
> there is an immediate sense of urgency - you have to move fast or
> your own blade will consume you.
>
> Ryu Hayabusa never had to deal with that, therefore Ninja Gaiden is
> for pussies.
THE TRUTH!!!
eBay Listings
Amazon Storefront | SmarmySir
  
| | #5 posted May 30, 2008 at 9:39pm (EST) |
Nah, Shinobi just didn't have variety. Go in this room, kill all these mean people and dogs before your sword kills you, go in that room and kill more people, then go in another room in kill the boss. This do while staying alive.
I think.
----------------------------------------------
My tee-shirt shop.
My Ebay store. | j_factor
| | #6 posted May 30, 2008 at 11:34pm (EST) |
Admiral wrote:
> benstylus wrote:
>> Admiral wrote:
> |>> J, aside from a few hardcore fans and cult gamers -
> NOBODY gives
>> a
> |>> crap about any of those franchises 
>>
>> Not anymore because EA forgot about them  Which kind
> of proves
>> j_factor's point.
>>
>> They used to be HUGE (except populous, which was always
> kind of low
>> key)
>>
>
> HA! I don't ever recall them being HUGE But ok...
They were huge. Even Populous; the series may not have been huge overall, but the original Populous did create a huge splash at the time and was very popular. You don't recall Road Rash being huge? Seriously? Road Rash!
<benstylus> what crappy game from 15 years ago have you been playing lately?
Answer: Super Buster Bros. (snes) | sgtshaggy
 
| | #7 posted May 30, 2008 at 11:53pm (EST) |
Populous was absolutely fabulous at the time, and I would say it was HUGE too. It was so new and fresh, I'd never played anything like it.
Road Rash was HUGE too.
shags
Got Virtua Fighter 5 (360) and XBox Live?
Virtua Fighter 5 Tournament | Guru
| | #8 posted May 31, 2008 at 12:59am (EST) |
HUGE!!!! | DR_SPOCK
| | #9 posted May 31, 2008 at 3:33am (EST) |
SmarmySir wrote:
> Nah, Shinobi just didn't have variety. Go in this room, kill all
> these mean people and dogs before your sword kills you, go in that
> room and kill more people, then go in another room in kill the boss.
> This do while staying alive.
>
> I think.
Contra is really repetitive. Shoot guys. Move to the right. Shoot more guys. Have you played those "shmup" games? All you do is shoot ships! What's up with that? Don't even get me started on Ninja Gaiden. . .
Most games can be reduced to "kill the bad guys," but in doing so you miss the point. I've yet to see an attack on THE MIGHTY TATE or any sort of refutation of my FINAL WORD on Shinobi, so as it stands, Shinobi is #1. Now stop sucking at life and fess up!!!
eBay Listings
Amazon Storefront | Anxiouz
 
| | #10 posted May 31, 2008 at 9:09am (EST) |
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue - 7.5/10 - The more I play the less I like it. It's so sterile, the interior engine noise doesn't sound appropriate for the car, the music is atrocious, and the AI is still really really bad. But....the in-car camera is amazing and it's still fun to play in short bursts. | SmarmySir
| | #11 posted May 31, 2008 at 9:54am (EST) |
DR_SPOCK wrote:
> SmarmySir wrote:
>> Nah, Shinobi just didn't have variety. Go in this room, kill all
>> these mean people and dogs before your sword kills you, go in that
>> room and kill more people, then go in another room in kill the
> boss.
>> This do while staying alive.
>>
>> I think.
>
> Contra is really repetitive. Shoot guys. Move to the right. Shoot
> more guys. Have you played those "shmup" games? All you do is shoot
> ships! What's up with that? Don't even get me started on Ninja Gaiden.
> . .
>
> Most games can be reduced to "kill the bad guys," but in doing so
> you miss the point. I've yet to see an attack on THE MIGHTY TATE or
> any sort of refutation of my FINAL WORD on Shinobi, so as it stands,
> Shinobi is #1. Now stop sucking at life and fess up!!!
I don't even know what you mean by THE MIGHTY TATE. I've never been a huge SHMUP fan, though, because I don't like to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again because it's too hard to get very far. What I mean by variety in Ninja Gaiden is the combined amount of different weapons (ranged and melee), the sheer number of moves and combos available, the magic, the fighting AS WELL AS the adventuring, etc, etc.
----------------------------------------------
My tee-shirt shop.
My Ebay store. | benstylus
(frozen)
| #12 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:07am (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 10:09am (EST) |
if you don't know what he means by the mighty tate, you have completely missed the most important game element of shinobi PS2. Once you understand and work for the tate, the entire playing dynamics of the game completely change. It's like playing an entirely different game.
As for the variety in Ninja Gaiden, it's because the core game isn't good enough on its own that they needed to add all that fluff to keep the player's interest. Kind of like Dead or Alive, now that I think about it... Fluff is an Itagaki specialty
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | benstylus
(frozen)
| #13 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:12am (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 10:13am (EST) |
Look at Street Fighter III: Third Strike.
It's 100% possible to beat the game without ever having to parry. If you learn to parry, however, it completely changes the dynamic of the game. It expands the game's possibilities tenfold, and increases your skill even more so.
If you're just interested in beating a game and putting it back on your shelf forever, then Shinobi is not for you. Go get Ninja Gaiden instead. If you're looking for a game to treasure and cherish in good times and bad as long as your PS2 shall live, then get Shinobi and learn to tate.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | MyAlterEgo
(frozen)
| | #14 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:15am (EST) |
benstylus, you put video games on too high of a pedestal.
| benstylus
(frozen)
| | #15 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:17am (EST) |
some people like powerful movies.
some people like fast cars.
some people like creamy peanut butter.
I like great video games.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | MyAlterEgo
(frozen)
| | #16 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:18am (EST) |
I like everything you listed as well, I'm just saying that you make it sound like a game is this unbelievably amazing, God-like thing.
| benstylus
(frozen)
| #17 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:23am (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 10:24am (EST) |
MyAlterEgo wrote:
> I like everything you listed as well, I'm just saying that you make
> it sound like a game is this unbelievably amazing, God-like thing.
>
it's beyond that.
Imagine an all powerful being - a God, if you will. Free to create and destroy universes, to give life, to take it, and to judge billions of people on whether they will go to heaven or not.
WELL, SHINOBI IS THE GAME THAT CREATED HIM.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | MyAlterEgo
(frozen)
| | #18 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:24am (EST) |
I didn't realize Shinobi's omnipotence! Forgive me, preacher ben!
| benstylus
(frozen)
| #19 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:37am (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 10:39am (EST) |
Admiral wrote:
> I think a good game doesn't make you DIG for the "fun". It slaps you
> right in the face with buckets of it.
I found Shinobi to be pretty fun even without the tate when I first played it.
Ninja Gaiden (which is what everyone compares the game to) was still a couple years off, and Taito's Bujingai (a game that plays quite similarly, but has a lot more variety and flashiness and features Gackt) was also at least a year or so away from release.
I don't know when you first played Shinobi, but going back and playing it AFTER playing the newer games might make it seem like it's primitive compared to them. And granted, without the tate, that would be the case.
At the time of its release, however, it was still a pretty fresh game without tate, even if not remarkably OMG ejaculation causing.  
But going by your definition of good, Wii Sports must be the greatest game of all time
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | benstylus
(frozen)
| #20 posted May 31, 2008 at 10:57am (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 11:12am (EST) |
Fair enough. I'm just saying that there are a lot of games that completely change and become infinitely better once you learn and master a particular mechanic of the game.
Looking at the games on your collection page, I'll name off a few:
Crazy Taxi - crazy boost
Daytona USA - drifting
Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat - air combos
Ikaruga - chaining (betcha thought I was going to say the black/white thing didn't you?)
F-Zero X - attacking
Super Mario 64 - turning the fudging game off
Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution - throw escapes, soft landings, etec. too many to list, really
OutRun 2006: Coast2Coast - Drafting
NiGHTS into Dreams... - linking
Panzer Dragoon Orta - morphing (and not just here and there - every single part of the game is designed with a specific dragon in mind, every boss fights is designed for rapid switching to the appropriate type for any given moment. It's pretty much as important to the game as the black/white mechanic is to ikaruga)
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | benstylus
(frozen)
| | #21 posted May 31, 2008 at 11:57am (EST) |
I think a lot of the games are fun right off the bat, but you lose interest quickly without at least trying to learn the mechanics.
If you play Crazy Taxi without the boost, you just won't get the kind of scores you'll get when you do start to use it - mostly D licences or a C license at best. Not to mention the playtime is significantly shortened because you can't get as many fares.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | Smaug317
| | #22 posted May 31, 2008 at 2:19pm (EST) |
benstylus wrote:
> some people like powerful movies.
>
> some people like fast cars.
>
> some people like creamy peanut butter.
>
> I like great video games.
>
>
That may have to be my sig in a while... or my quote. 
That is the question. | Spunion
| | #23 posted May 31, 2008 at 3:51pm (EST) |
Road Rash was very huge in its day.
It was the first game to ever use a soundtrack from popular rock musicians. Playing it today though, man its pretty awful, hard to believe the game was ever so huge. | DefaultGen
| | #24 posted May 31, 2008 at 4:31pm (EST) |
benstylus wrote:
> Super Mario 64 - turning the fudging game off
You just hate good games don't you? (Good Sega games you like at least)
DefaultGen.info Trade me Steel Battalion/Tekki Stuff!
| benstylus
(frozen)
| #25 posted May 31, 2008 at 5:23pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 5:25pm (EST) |
heh - i was waiting for someone to catch that one.
No, I dislike Mario 64 - I've tried to like it several times on the N64, the DS, and again on the Wii, but every time the awful awful camera angles and the bloated boring level design (with the exception of the paths you traverse on your way to a bowser fight) just have permanently turned me off to that game.
And the controls - OH THE CONTROLS... being the first big title to usher in analog, the controls were terrible in my opinion. When I got it on the DS and could finally play with a digital pad, I actually found myself enjoying it for the first time... but then the level design problems set in and it was crap again so I just played the minigames.
On the other hand, I think Super Mario Galaxy is the single most enjoyable 3D platformer ever created, and one of the best games ever created. Mario 64 is just BAD. And not in a Michael Jackson way.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | j_factor
| | #26 posted May 31, 2008 at 5:45pm (EST) |
benstylus wrote:
> Super Mario 64 - turning the fudging game off
<benstylus> what crappy game from 15 years ago have you been playing lately?
Answer: Super Buster Bros. (snes) | DefaultGen
| | #27 posted May 31, 2008 at 5:53pm (EST) |
benstylus wrote:
> On the other hand, I think Super Mario Galaxy is the single most enjoyable
> 3D platformer ever created, and one of the best games ever created.
> Mario 64 is just BAD. And not in a Michael Jackson way.
>
>
But... but they're the same game! And SMG had worse camera although I didn't have a problem with either! *asplode*
DefaultGen.info Trade me Steel Battalion/Tekki Stuff!
| benstylus
(frozen)
| | #28 posted May 31, 2008 at 6:00pm (EST) |
DefaultGen wrote:
> But... but they're the same game!
Just goes to show how important great level design really is.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | DefaultGen
| #29 posted May 31, 2008 at 6:13pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 6:13pm (EST) |
THEY BOTH HAVE FANTASTIC LEVEL DESIGN.
AND SNATCHER HAD A GREAT ENDING.
DefaultGen.info Trade me Steel Battalion/Tekki Stuff!
| Smaug317
| #30 posted May 31, 2008 at 6:21pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 6:22pm (EST) |
Super Mario 64 isn't that bad... especially for its time. While it's in no way the best platformer ever, it's not that bad.
That is the question. | sgtshaggy
| #31 posted May 31, 2008 at 6:36pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 6:36pm (EST) |
Admiral wrote:
> Wow, we certainly have different perspectives I suppose. Road Rash
> and Populus were never HUGE games in my book.
It's not really my "perspective" on either game, particularly Populous (which not only sold well, but won a few awards too). They were successful, popular , even innovative games, even if your silly ass was still riding down grassy hills in Tonka trucks instead. .
sahgs
Got Virtua Fighter 5 (360) and XBox Live?
Virtua Fighter 5 Tournament | DR_SPOCK
| #32 posted May 31, 2008 at 8:29pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 8:31pm (EST) |
Shaun covered the bases really well, not much for me to add. The 3rd Strike example is probably the exact example I'd have cited in that situation.
I will say that the keyword with regard to Ninja Gaiden is "fluff." New weapons, enemies, superfluous combos, etc. are included to make the game more entertaining (not unlike explosions in an action game).
Gameplay - not games - can be an art. Kojima can make his interactive films and that's fine, Itagaki can make flashy action games and that too is fine, but neither of these creators can create truly artful gameplay mechanics (or they haven't yet). Chaining, polarity, Crazy Dash, TATE, etc. are all brilliant gameplay mechanics that truly make the medium artful. Note who develops many of the games in Shaun's list - Sega - and also note why so many of us are rapid fans of the developer. Simple play mechanics that force you to think and test your reflexes.
Shinobi is Akira Kurosawa to Ninja Gaiden's Jerry Bruckheimer.
eBay Listings
Amazon Storefront | benstylus
(frozen)
| #33 posted May 31, 2008 at 8:44pm (EST)
edited May 31, 2008 at 8:49pm (EST) |
DR_SPOCK wrote:
> Note who develops many of the games in Shaun's
> list - Sega -
To be fair - the reason for this COULD just be because Sega games are what I am most familiar with...
> and also note why so many of us are rapid fans of the
> developer.
But yeah, you're right - Fudge the haters
Smaug317 wrote:
> Super Mario 64 isn't that bad... especially for its time. While it's
> in no way the best platformer ever, it's not that bad.
I will say it was INNOVATIVE. I will say it was INFLUENTIAL. I will even say it was IMPORTANT.
But none of those necessarily translate into a great game, or even a good one.
It was a stepping stone that needed to be taken so that games could eventually blossom in 3D. That is all.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | Jeffro
(frozen)
| | #34 posted May 31, 2008 at 9:09pm (EST) |
I hit the 120 hour mark playing Persona 3: FES, the game has become part of my everyday routine. It's going to suck when it ends 
P.S. Shinobi is AMAZING!!!
 | DR_SPOCK
| | #35 posted June 1, 2008 at 3:42am (EST) |
Jeffro wrote:
> P.S. Shinobi is AMAZING!!!
You never let me down!!
eBay Listings
Amazon Storefront | AlphakirA
(frozen)
| | #36 posted June 1, 2008 at 6:27am (EST) |
Which company makes Mario 64? Which makes Sonic Adventure 2? Answered?
 | benstylus
(frozen)
| #37 posted June 1, 2008 at 9:01am (EST)
edited June 1, 2008 at 9:12am (EST) |
Sonic adventure 1 I like. Even the Big the Cat stages. Not so big on playing every stage 3 times to get all the medals, so I never bothered.
Sonic Adventure 2 I dislike more than Mario 64.
Astonishing new research reveals that, contrary to popular opinion, enough may not necessarily be enough, as had been believed previously.
Story at 11. | colon
| | #38 posted June 1, 2008 at 1:52pm (EST) |
Teenage Zombies: Invasion of the Alien Brain Thingys {DS} 7/10 | SmarmySir
| | #39 posted June 1, 2008 at 2:53pm (EST) |
Every time someone says TATE, I'm automatically thinking TAINT, and I giggle.
I was so excited for Shinobi, because I loved the old games. I bought it even BEFORE I had a PS2, I was so excited for it. I enjoyed it at first, and I even got pretty good at it, but after a while I realized I was forcing myself to like just because it's... Shinobi.
Now, Ninja Gaiden - there's a game I enjoyed immensely (and effortlessly) the whole way through, even when I wanted to strike my controller on the ground, rendering it inoperable.
----------------------------------------------
My tee-shirt shop.
My Ebay store. | Smaug317
| | #40 posted June 1, 2008 at 2:57pm (EST) |
SmarmySir wrote:
> Now, Ninja Gaiden - there's a game I enjoyed immensely (and effortlessly)
> the whole way through, even when I wanted to strike my controller
> on the ground, rendering it inoperable.
>
Yep. I both love and hate that you're just owning, then make one mistake and your dead.
That is the question. | | |
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