General

whitefire wrote:

I was 20 when I saw III in theaters and that scene got me teary eyed, no lie.

III was the first one to get a PG-13 rating. The sequels, Solo, and Rogue One then also got PG-13. Take that for what it's worth.

III has the youngling scene, but also the rather nasty burning scene (after 3 more limbs are lopped off), the surgical scene with Vader getting his prosthetics and armor, and the childbirth and subsequent death scene. Any or all of that could be a problem depending on how young/immature your kids are.

VII and VIII were not really as bad, except for the rather prominent deaths towards the end of each.

Rogue One is much more of a war movie. Ground forces feature much more prominently, so we get a lot more face to face combat, as opposed to space combat. I won't say more since you mentioned you haven't seen it.

Scott wrote:

He's actually laughing in that scene. He couldn't get it right, so he held his hand over his mouth.

theJaw wrote:

Yeah I've never liked prequel first or machete order, I think IV-VI and then I-III is definitely the way to go. They didn't see the twist coming at all. They actually thought Vader was lying at first. When I told them he wasn't they both said "REALLY?!?"


Interesting. I hadn't thought about where to fit them in yet. That makes sense.

whitefire wrote:

lol, I was talking about the actual scene where Anakin kills the younglings.

Grenadier wrote:

I didn't even think about all of that other stuff at the end of III. My only concern was the youngling scene. Thanks for all the info!

@Scott your kids had the same reaction that lots of movie-goers did at the time of release then. There was apparently this big debate heading into Return of the Jedi over whether Darth Vader was lying or not. I can only imagine what the internet would have looked like with that cliffhanger lingering haha

In regards to the final Episode IX trailer: I loved it and it definitely got me pumped for the movie.

But what are the odds Abrams takes a swerve and doesn't have Kylo get the teased obligatory face-turn? It's no secret I dug The Last Jedi even if over time I realize there was plenty that could have been done better, but my favorite part was that it seemed to establish Kylo Ren as the main antagonist of the trilogy. I thought that it was a good "second chapter" on the road to him becoming the major other-worldly threat for Episode IX. To be honest, that just would have been nice and simple-enough character development. However the last couple shots from this new trailer definitely have me thinking Kylo will help Rey defeat Palpatine (and/or whoever else) in the end.

So is there any chance Abrams is just pulling a bait-and-switch with this trailer? He knows that after the different tone and direction of The Last Jedi, there will be a sector of fans expecting a "return to form" here, but I'd still like to see Kylo Ren end as more "bad" than "good", even if circumstances cause another team-up with Rey. By the looks of it, we're going to get that huge "Return of the Jedi" style movie here either way, but I think it'd be interesting to not have Kylo Ren pull a full-Anakin.

Will judge the events of the movie on their own merit when I see it though, if they do the face-turn and I enjoy the way it's pulled off then I have no reason to complain. I'm just interested to see where they take that character especially.

I don't see why he would pull a bait and switch. He had at least 18 months (minimum) to make adjustments to Skywalker. There's no way he and Disney wouldn't have switched things up after how poorly TLJ was received by fans. I think what we get we'll be even better than what we see.

Did anyone get tickets last night? Got some for the 6pm showing Friday, December 20th.

whitefire wrote:

How poorly TLJ was received by some fans. Still seems to me that the majority of fans and casual movie-goers (not all) were either fine with TLJ or simply indifferent all together. Just an extremely vocal sect of Star Wars fans who thought it was actually offensive and let the internet know, but the only audience aggregate website that reflects that hardcore disapproval was Rotten Tomatoes (which was openly and admittedly review-bombed by trolls). In my opinion, Lucasfilm really didn't need to do anything based off the gut reaction from some to TLJ, they could have had the stones to continue in a less obvious direction. I just figured Abrams (the guy himself) would opt to return the series to the cookie-cutter form. Which is what it seems he has done, for better or worse.

Anyhow, I'm not talking about adjusting anything during production. I just mean that this final trailer itself could be a bait-and-switch, as it overtly made it seem like Kylo Ren was primed for the ROTJ-Vader redemption arc. The "I do" bit and the bit where it seems Kylo and Rey are working together to destroy Vader's helmet(?) seemed to tease it. And then the bit where we see him walk toward something off-camera leading to the Palpatine(?)/Rey shot is super reminiscent of Vader walking off-camera to help Luke in ROTJ. So I'm wondering if the trailer itself is misleading us to expect something more "obviously Star Wars" and whether or not JJ Abrams would pull the trigger on keeping Kylo Ren the "bad guy". I highly doubt it, but I think it'd be a cool change up from the norm.

klusion wrote:

Packed theaters on opening weekend always geek me out a bit so I'll probably just wait until that following week to see it. I don't expect to have to buy tickets beforehand in that case. Usually the movie only sells out for the first few days anyhow.

Just gonna dread the internet for those few days. If this movie gets spoiled for me, I'll be bummed.

Many fans (less than 50# audience RT rating, 7.1 IMDB score, 4.4 user score on metacritic) took major issue with it. I liked it, but the vast, vast majority of fans thought it had issues and was a step down. I think they're taking the franchise more seriously now after TLJ and Solo. I think they got lazy and also rushed a bit in a lot of spots thinking that, due to the success of the first two films, they could just phone it in and put out half-assed films. They found out otherwise, and while there was still a lot of money made overall, a company like Disney looks at the big picture.

Also going back to my Kylo Ren hopes, I'm not gonna pretend like him redeeming himself and pulling a ROTJ-Vader would be the worst thing ever. As a Star Wars fan, I'm going to love seeing him "go good" in some triumphant, overtly Star Wars moment. I'd just also love the opposite. Neither outcome would detriment my opinion unless the writing and execution were poor.

I have no problem with Kylo Ren anyway way they go with him, as long as they tone down the brooding and whining. It was the worst thing about Anakin too.

whitefire wrote:

Again, the RT audience rating was openly review-bombed by troll accounts, even Metacritic got lambasted a bit. More than one group has claimed credit for it. TLJ got 7.1 on IMDB and CinemaScore, who polls audiences immediately after seeing the movie, gave it an "A". It's no coincidence that the websites with less opportunity to register fake accounts have TLJ ranked higher than the others.

It's fine if you had issues with it, even folks like me who enjoyed the movie have things they dislike about it, but the "vast, vast majority" didn't find it offensively bad in the way the RT user score was manipulated to reflect.


If anything, Solo's poor marketing and silly release date got Disney re-thinking plans for the side story films. TLJ did well enough financially that they would have no reason to "rethink" anything just because of a RT user score. Look at all their current live-action remakes. They get crap from both sides of the RT field, critics and audiences, but they make a crapload of money, so Disney keeps pumping them out. If one of their franchises is making money, a company like Disney doesn't care if audiences dislike the product. Billions of dollars are their "big picture", not pleasing each and every person who sees a movie.

whitefire wrote:

Anakin's angsty dialogue was so over-the-top and Lucas did a poor job directing the actor, resulting in what we got from that character. Kylo Ren definitely was a bit whiny in The Force Awakens, but I liked him a lot more in The Last Jedi. He started out unsure still, but after the Snoke deal, seemed a lot more confident. It wasn't until he saw Luke that he started ramping up that angst again, but even then I feel like it played more as unhinged anger as opposed to Attack of the Clones-style Anakin whining.

But yah, either way as far as "light side or dark side" would be fine if it's pulled off well. I'm just looking forward to seeing what actually happens.

@whitefire have you ever dabbled with fan edits? I’d be interested what you think of a TLJ edit I watched the other day. I think it’s a huge improvement to the original cut, removing lots of the cringey humor and reducing Canto Bight down to what’s necessary.

I'm a sucker for happy endings and redemption stories, so even though it's cliche and has already been done in Star Wars, I'd still like to see Kylo turn good in this film. Let Palpatine be the overall bad guy of all 3 trilogies, and Kylo and Rey can take him down together, for good.

For sure, if that happens it could still be a great ending. I thought I’d hate reviving an OT villain like Vader or Palpatine but using ol’ Sheev as the throughline connecting all 3 trilogies is pretty neat. And it works better as a reveal for this last chapter than it would have if they just had him hanging around in the last 2 movies.

theJaw wrote:

I'm not sure about the legality of fan edits.

whitefire wrote:

I'd say it's more of a morality issue, even though it is a legal one technically speaking. No film studio would bother going after a fan-editor for sending edits out to select folks. They could, but it wouldn't be worth their time or resources. Technically not legal, but fan edits have never impacted any film studio in any way that would call for legal action, so it's a little silly. Morally speaking, I've spent quite a bit of money on Star Wars and similar franchises, and will continue to do so, so I don't feel like I'm taking money out of anybody's pockets at this point. I don't see editing a movie and showing folks that edit for free, especially if those folks own a copy of the original, as being morally wrong. The law may technically frown upon it but certain laws can be pointless and in need of revision from time-to-time.

Either way, a better cut of TLJ exists and I'm happy I got to see it. It will probably be my go-to version. It addresses a lot of the problems I had with the OG cut:

-Poe's "mother" joke is gone. In this version it cuts from Hux listening to Poe call him a "tall, pasty guy" straight to Hux ordering the ship to open fire. No more "tooling" line, etc.
-A Finn/Poe deleted scene, where Finn tells Poe that he never considered himself a part of the Resistance, is reinstated. This scene is necessary as it establishes the starting point for Finn's arc, where he eventually learns to be more like Rose and less like DJ by finally choosing a "side". Without this scene, it's understandable how Finn's arc could be missed by people.
-Luke's lightsaber toss is scored differently. In the OG cut, the music swells to a stop, and then Luke tosses the saber back as a sight gag, played for laughs. In this edit, the swell comes as Luke is walking away, having already thrown the saber. It comes off as less of an "antic" and more of a defiant statement.
-I didn't mind the Leia-in-space bit, but they edit this version as the TIE fighters blowing out the side of the ship, and then the explosion's light takes the entire frame over as Leia feels the impact. It then cuts pretty artful to a shot of the ship's exterior and the battle. Next time we see Leia is when she's being carted off on the stretcher.
-Casino scene is trimmed to solely deal with the search for a codebreaker. No more slave kids or cat-horses.
-The editor frames the meeting scene between Finn/Rose and DJ with the former following the latter out of the cell, insinuating that they decide to join him right away (as opposed to after he and BB-8 save them from the chase scene). After Finn and Rose leave the cell, the next time we see them is already on-board the ship in hyperspeed.
-No more BB-8 in the walker.

There are some other fixes that I could have taken either way. The Rose/Finn "suicide save" at the end is gone. The one thing I really would have liked them to keep that they edited out was Finn vs. Phasma. It was fairly pointless but I still thought it added a bit to the movie.

Interesting comments from Adam Driver: https://screenrant.com/star-wars-9-movie-adam-driv...

In his opinion, Kylo Ren is the "son of two religious zealots", referring to Han Solo and Leia. He looks at Kylo Ren as having been committed to a religion and belief system above all else, including family. That's sort of true, considering Leia has sent him away to train with Luke and all. Obviously Leia wanted him to learn to harness his powers so he wouldn't be a threat to himself or anyone, but you can sort of see where Driver is coming from as far as Kylo Ren's POV goes. It makes his desire to "kill the past" a lot more poignant.

theJaw wrote:

Just remember it's going to be Christmas the following week, so the traffic won't be much better.

I got tickets for the Thursday 6PM and the Saturday night (Dolby Atmos) as well. A lot of people I know are not willing to go to opening nights, so I guess by myself.

Great piece written by Billie Lourd about her mother, Carrie Fisher, and her “stepmom” Princess Leia:
https://time.com/5720323/billie-lourd-princess-lei...

Gets me really excited to see her one last time in Episode IX.

DrizzDrizzDrizz wrote:

First "I'm sick of Star Wars" post of the season, fellas. Let's try to keep the major SW discussion to the ol' STAR WAR.

OK, so this occurred to me the next day....

BTW, are we using spoiler tags in here, or is the whole thread one big spoiler?

I vote no spoiler tags.

I, too, vote open spoilers.

@Grenadier there are lots of things that don't mesh between Episodes VII/VIII and IX. Like how both TFA and TLJ hint toward Kylo Ren as clearly having some sort of history with Rey before the events of TFA somehow, only to find out in Episode IX that he didn't know her origins and thus, had no history with her. Couple threads were lost from VII/VIII to IX unfortunately.

I guess in Starkiller Base's case, you can explain it away and make the argument that Palpatine's hidden fleet just wasn't ready yet. Maybe it got all finished up in the year between VIII and IX, and that's why Palpatine finally decided to transmit his warning of revenge across the galaxy. Perhaps Kylo Ren and the First Order created the Starkiller Base solely to diminish the strength of the Republic and any other enemies Palpatine had before he made his final huge attack.

Of course none of that was explained so you sort of just have to assume it... which seems to be an ongoing theme when trying to link certain threads to Episode IX.

ENIX wrote:

Replying here so no one gets upset about SW talk in the score thread. But I agree with this too.

In fact I'd like to see an editor take the whole trilogy and fan edit it, taking the opening to TROS and placing it into the end of TLJ, so that Palpatine's first appearance is the stinger for TLJ.

I feel like removing some dialogue and a shot or two from the start of TROS could possibly suggest Kylo Ren wasn't 100% in the dark about Palpatine being around. It'd maybe come off as Kylo Ren failing to turn Rey in TLJ, and then reporting directly to Palpatine since "Snoke" was now "dead".

Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental connection they shared in 8 make more sense.

The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.

If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?

The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise, and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the fleet was ready.

Grenadier wrote:

Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.

There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape. The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him, and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment. This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the news of a girl aiding his enemies.

Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true, bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character, and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.

This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.

Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story of Palpatine's involvement.

There is easily enough to suggest that he was aware of Rey before the events of TFA and Episode IX drops that idea in favor of tying Rey to Palpatine.


I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.


The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.

Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped" his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.

But again, that’s all just hypothetical if you want to read into it. It should have been presented in the movie so that IX made a bit more sense.


He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene of TROS.

The fleet was airborn and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.

theJaw wrote:

Nope. You're reaching.


Nothing here hints he knew of her. Replace the line about "a girl" with any other noun. He's simply pissed off that someone, ANYONE, is helping Finn and Poe. Someone could have told him that it was a wookie helping, and he'd be ranting "What wookie?!?!?"

The fascination comes later when her realizes her abilities and their mental connection is made in TLJ.


Yeah, the seams between 7 and 9 are showing again.


Simple. He's either talking out of his ass, or he's using the Force to intuit it, perhaps with a boost from Snoke and/or Palpatine.


Or again....his info is limited because he's getting it from Force visions and half-truths from his master(s).



The level of engineering required just seems out of line. If you could build a bunch of ships, that's a much simpler task than hollowing out a planet, making it mobile, and figuring out how to suck a star dry, contain, that energy, and shoot it across hyperspace.


Except it did exactly that. If he keeps ALL of his forces in the Unknown Regions until the fleet was ready, instead of running around and starting trouble, then there is no reason for a Resistance to be formed. He'd have been better off sitting out there, building his fleet, and then blitzing everyone once he had 1000 Death Stars ready to go.


Yes, but trapped.


He broadcast before the fleet was out of the atmosphere. Basically, his fleet was trapped there, unable to leave atmosphere, and therefore vulnerable. Dumb move to pick a fight with the Resistance when he could have waited until that fleet was not sitting there ripe for destruction.

Nope not reaching. For the Kylo/Rey stuff, we’re going to have to disagree. Especially on the “what girl” line. And relying on the Force as a write off for why a character knows of somebody’s exact childhood details would be pretty lazy from any writer. Either way, I wouldn’t say I’m reaching as there were plenty of articles floating around the net after TFA released theorizing on if Kylo Ren knew her and how. It’s really not that far fetched.

Stuff about Episode IX was just theory anyhow, so that stuff is give or take. I was just trying to come up with reasons that might be able to explain the issues you pointed out away. Thought for about 5 minutes total about it so it’s no surprise if I was off there.

I can’t help but feel extremely unsatisfied with the climax of Ep 9. Especially when compared to the climax of Ep 6 and to a lesser extent Ep 3. I needed like another 10 minutes of light saber battles and crap or something.

They should have brought back Darth Maul for another 2v1fight with Rey and Kylo, would have been sweet.

Did they fix Chewies cgi face in RoS? It didn’t seem to bother me this time but was an eye sore in FA...maybe I just got used to it.

They did. It was fine in Solo too.

It never bothered me, but I know what you mean.

I thought 7 was fun and enjoyed it. hated 8, maybe because I had too high expectations for a good twist or something. 9 was good and I enjoyed much more than 8 but not as much as 7 Lol

Shane12m wrote:

I think this is the general consensus sir

@Grenadier (Merry Christmas firstly)

Secondly, watched Episode IX (again). During that last battle, the fleet isn't stuck in Exogal's atmosphere until after the command ship is shot down by Finn and Jannah. An alien pilot tells Poe to look at the command ship falling and then Poe says "Their fleet are stuck here!" in direct response to that happening. That's context. The fleet wasn't stuck in the atmosphere (until the very end), they just never left the atmosphere because Poe and the Resistance brought the fight to them before they left.

And to be honest, that could have easily been Palpatine's plan - to lure the Resistance into a trap. After all, the initial Resistance fleet that shows up is tiny compared to Palpatine's secret fleet, and that was the only Resistance that was known to still exist at that point (until the big save lead by Lando). It'd make complete strategic sense for Palpatine to lure what he probably assumed was the entire Resistance to a planet where there are zillions of Star Destroyers lined up with planet-killing weaponry. Once he wiped them out before even leaving Exogal, he would have had literally no opposition to take the entire galaxy. The odds seemed forever in Palpatine's favor until Lando and the cavalry arrived.

So I don't really feel like that aspect of his plan didn't make sense. What doesn't make sense about Palpatine's plan is the actual personal bit. He's 100% willing to let Rey strike him down so that he can more-or-less possess her with his Sithiness, but then once Ben shows up, his plan is suddenly to just take all the power for himself. He did seem caught off guard when their Force bond started rejuvenating him so it's possible he just re-assessed his plan at the last second, but you'd think he'd have known their Force bond was that powerful considering he had been pulling Kylo Ren's strings all throughout the trilogy, but alas. Also why the fudge does Rey and Ben's Force bond provide Palpatine with new clothes? I get that it looks like a mix of PT Palpatine and OT Palpatine... but a pretty silly way for it to happen.

Reed wrote:

His face wasn't CGI in The Last Jedi either (no idea about TFA). I guess lots of folks thought that but Johnson confirmed that it wasn't the case. Most people chalk it up to the fact that Joonas Suotamo's eyes are just real different than Peter Mayhew's.

I personally never thought it looked like CGI at all, or even heard that complaint made until your comment here.

Chewies face is def CGI in TFA and it looks like crap.

@Scott Moved this convo to the SW thread because I know people hate seeing it in the movie thread for whatever reason.

Gonna reply to our points of contention and, yes, in length. 100% not to argue or call you "wrong" or whatever, and I don't blame you for skimming or disregarding entirely. I just wanted to put this disclaimer here to assure anyone reading that this is just a discussion with differing opinions because that's what happens with SW these days. They're just movies after all, just ones that I can write way too much about.

I'll still always look back at SW as a whole - prequels, OT and sequels - and appreciate the overall narrative. Even if certain movies had things I thought were bad, the lore still interests me to no end. I'd love these stories presented in some sort of history book, similar to the history books put out for GOT/ASOIAF, as if they were legitimate accounts of historical events written by someone in-universe.

Also, and I promise this isn't being posted in conjuction with my wall of text as an attempt to sway anyone though the timing is admittedly bad, but I just realized earlier today that TROS has the lowest Cinemascore out of any Star Wars movie. This post includes more discussion about the reaction to TLJ, so feel free to pass on by if you're over that sort of thing.

Anyhow, these are the Cinemascores for the Star Wars movies:

The Phantom Menace: A-
Attack of the Clones: A-
Revenge of the Sith: A-
The Force Awakens: A
Rogue One: A
The Last Jedi: A
Solo: A-
The Rise of Skywalker: B+

Cinemascore is an aggregate website that polls folks directly after the movie as they're leaving the theater. Movie scores tend to skew high on that site as the polls happen on opening night, so it's the most "involved" fans being polled. AKA these scores can't be review-bombed like RT and are a direct reflection of some of the most passionate fans of any given movie. B+ isn't bad on paper but it's not necessarily a good "Cinemascore", especially when you take into account that the infamously bad Cats got a C+, which is obviously only a full letter grade below TROS. The only theatrical Star Wars to do worse than TROS was The Clone Wars animated movie that did a B-.

That's not the be-all end-all obviously and everyone's entitled to an opinion. In my own, TROS was fine and definitely not worse than any of the Prequel Trilogy if definitely a little disappointing. But it does say something interesting about the vehement internet backlash toward The Last Jedi when you see that real in-person audiences made up of hardcore Star Wars fans seemed to enjoy the saga more when it veered from the beaten path, or at least enjoyed it less when it decided to return to the beaten path.

The internet backlash to that movie really is just that - internet backlash, with the same vocal-but-toxic critics crapposting with the same tired "points" anytime the movie is brought up (Rian Johnson literally can't post a tweet without someone with "Fandom Menace" in their bio saying something foolish in response). While there are definitely some low lows in TLJ, I still firmly believe that the majority of casual movie-goers, and most Star Wars fans in general, enjoyed The Last Jedi more than you'd think if you were to just look on Twitter, Reddit, Rotten Tomatoes, or of course corner-of-the-net message boards with like 12 active users.

Anxiouz wrote:

Replying to you here to keep it outta the Movie thread, folks get mad when too much SW pops up in there haha

I feel you, but the story/character issues I have with TROS aren’t specific to Star Wars, it’s just basic storytelling. If an episodic series introduces a character and another installment/“episode” of said series is released, it just makes sense to integrate the characters who are already established, especially if you have plot details that would make sense to attribute to their character. Introducing characters who are capable of serving the same purpose in a plot as an established character is just poor writing in general, Star Wars or otherwise. Zorii Bliss has the exact same arc that Rose did in TLJ (relay info about a planet overrun by bad guys and swoop in at the end to make a save) just this time with a Power Rangers outfit, and Jannah has the exact same “kinship with Finn” that Rose did just now with Finn’s exact origin story.

I’m also a JJ Abrams fan but can admit his “mystery box” style of writing can get in the way of logic a lot and he’s hit-or-miss when it comes to fully delivering (Into Darkness for example). Still, TROS is the most disappointed I’ve been in one of his movies.

Of course that’s due to the script/writing in general, not the direction, so maybe Chris Terrio deserves more of my ire (dude did write Batman v Superman after all).

hahaa I like Solo too but I can sorta see that. In fact TROS sorta suffers from a lot of what I feel Solo does - it jumps from setting to setting too quickly and integrates sorta half-baked characters who exist solely in their little sections of movie. Both seem sorta like 2 or 3 movies condensed into one.

But ALSO like TROS, it's fudging wonderful to look at, the acting is real good and it's just a fun romp through the universe.

What I CAN'T see is how any of the prequel trilogy are out of the "B" rank. AotC should be Cats-level tbh.

@theJaw I read all of your reply. We can just agree to disagree I guess. You love TLJ and are mixed on TRoS, it's the other way around for me.

As for the CinemaScore, I feel like TRoS's score is more a reflection of the overall tension and negativity that has grown in the Star Wars community, and overall culture, starting with TLJ and then getting even worse with Solo. So many people seem to have already made up their minds that everything Star Wars is just terrible now, will never be good, yet they still watch it, just so they can pick it apart and go on and on about how bad it is. Not you, obviously, but a lot of people. Star Wars fans have transitioned from crapping all over the prequels to crapping all over the ST, it's annoying.

Yah I agree it’s very annoying for sure. I personally don’t feel like the opening night premieres that get polled would have been attended by lots of those naysayers so I still feel like the TROS Cinemascore is valid. I suppose it could be possible that some folks disenchanted by the previous 2 movies went opening night but I don’t feel like it’d be enough to really hinder the score to such a degree - I truly feel like a large enough sect of true SW fans (and not just counter-culture edgelords) were let down by TROS to a degree and I’m judging that solely from the reactions I’ve seen that share that sentiment without getting toxic like TLJ haters tend to. The backlash toward TROS and TLJ are like night and day, at this point TROS comes off as true disappointment from fans who were hopeful and TLJ comes off as try-hard vehement hatred from folks who already had their mind made up. Disliking these movies is one thing but neither were so bad that anyone should feel it necessary to die on that hill. Yet, they do.

Either way we can definitely agree that the SW hate is overblown and obnoxious. It’s made me personally reevaluate my own obnoxious take on the PT movies. While I still dislike them for the most part and feel fine criticizing them when the conversation calls for it, I regret being so hard on them for years solely because that just ruins the fun for folks who did like them. Thankfully I grew up a bit in that regard and can only hope the same happens for the toxic fandom out there.

Looks very neat, I’m looking forward to whatever comics come about from this.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=xCat5fXRyyU

I couldn't watch the whole thing, but if my skipping was accurate, more animation? No thanks.

whitefire wrote:

It only mentioned books and comics and whatnot.

What’s the issue with animation? Resistance wasnt much to write home about but Clone Wars and Rebels have consistently been regarded high points of SW. I’d love another animated series.

I don't care for 95% of animation that is geared towards children or families. I can watch some Bakshi or Heavy Metal. Stuff like that. Even some of the old Rankin Bass is ok.

It's not to say that it's bad or I can't enjoy some animation with my kids, but I always prefer live action everything.

Yah that’s valid, plenty of episodes lean toward children. At least for Rebels. But a majority of Rebels ends up tackling mature themes, and just about all of Clone Wars is geared toward older teens/adults.

Resistance is 100% a kids show though.

Either way, other than SW, animation can be used to tell very adult-oriented stories - just depends on, well, the story. Animation doesn’t designate a children’s story by any means, especially these days.

anyone else disappointed High Republic wasn't about a bunch of stoners sharing their love of Star Wars?

Xena wrote:

Well apparently someone thinks putting Dinosaurs in this High Republic stuff is a good idea. If it's real Dinosaurs (T-Rex, etc) that's dumb. Beasts that just look like they could be Dinosaurs, that's fine as Star Wars has had things that look like them already.

I’m sure they’re referring to dinosaurs as they’d exist on an alien planet and not Earth’s dinosaurs.

And I do want a bunch of stoned Jedi.

But if it's Earth's dinosaurs, we got problems.

Yes indeed. SW Extended materials have historically done some real stupid things in the past and will almost certainly do some real stupid things in the future. Hoping Earth dinosaurs is not one of them.

Star Wars will always be in a galaxy far, far away. If they come to our galaxy, I call bullcrap.

whitefire wrote:

If they come to our Galaxy it'll only happen so they can put product placement in Star Wars, and if they do that I'll stop watching anything from there on out.

Again, I doubt that’ll happen. If you look at the High Republic stuff, it all revolves around the “ancient times” of the SW galaxy - the use of the word “dinosaurs” on one white board likely pertains to weirdo extinct alien monsters the same way their use of the word “vehicle” pertains to landspeeders or star destroyers.

Also, they have no reason to include product placement within the stories considering most of them are going to be told via comics, and comics have included actual print ads within their pages for decades.

ads, another reason I don't buy Marvel/DC Single issue comics

Ads can obviously be annoying but the argument can be made that there would be far less comics in general without ads - physical print is a dying business so ads are the only reason physical copies with high print runs still get produced. Even Image and other labels run ads in their books if the print run is larger than 5,000 issues or so (although they at least don’t place them in the middle of books like Marvel/DC).

Marvel and DC obviously have a ton of money but if they printed large runs of comics without ads they likely wouldn’t see a return that makes printing physically worth it. I’ll put up with an ad I can ignore to ensure physical copies continue to exist. I’d hate to never smell a fresh book again haha

I buy mostly Image Comics single issues. No ads until the end, if there are ads at all. Even then it's usually advertising other comics they have.

Yah most of their issues run around 5,000 copies for a 1st print, so there’s no huge need to put ads in there. I would rather the ads stick to the back of the books from other labels but like I said, I have no issue ignoring them to ensure some of the books I’ve loved since I was a kid keep getting printed physically.

No ads in my one single issue of a Dark Horse comic either. It's ads in the middle that annoy me.

Yah no ads would be ideal, just wouldn’t be feasible for DC/Marvel to print huge runs of their popular books without them unfortunately.

So for fellow dweebs who were left wondering about this, apparently the Episode IX novel confirms that the Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker was a clone of the Palpatine we knew from Episodes I-VI, and was only so degraded due to the cloned vessel being unable to withstand the OG Palpatine’s immense power.

I suppose that’s a better explanation than no explanation at all, or the common assumption that it was the tattered body from the first 6 movies having somehow survived Return of the Jedi. Though I do think that this was just the novel’s writer filling in blanks that were never considered when Abrams and Terrio were writing the movie itself, and that the film’s writers truly intended it to be the body from RotJ having survived the Second Death Star’s destruction. Otherwise it would have been so easy to include a simple line of (necessary) dialogue during Kylo Ren and Palpatine’s initial interaction to establish that it was a clone we were seeing as opposed to all the dialogue that seemed to insinuate it was the same Palpatine we had always seen. All we got was Dominic Monaghan’s character vaguely mentioning “clone technology” or something similar among a list of other possibilities for Palpatine’s return.

Still, I’m glad somebody offered a now-canon reason for why Palpatine was still around without it being a total cop-out. I mean cloning is still pretty “eh” anytime it’s used, especially when bringing back a dead character, but at least there is already a precedence in SW that cloning has always been a “thing” that happens from time to time. And I do think the novel’s way of establishing this info (by having Kylo Ren remember his teachings of the Clone Wars from when he was kid and recognize the equipment Palpatine was hooked up to as being prominent during that era) was pretty witty.

Reys father was a failed Palpatine clone. They need to actually have a plan with whatever they do next and not just make it up as they go along.

Kommie wrote:

As much as I feel like they're just making crap up as they go along, I looked further into it and apparently most of these plot points from the novel (like Palpatine being a clone in TROS) were indeed in the script but cut from the movie.

Either they're just saying that to save face, which I'd be inclined to believe at this point after the backlash toward TROS, or they should have left this crap in the actual movie so that the MOVIE made sense and not the novel. Either way you shake a stick at it, the movie dropped the ball on a lot of this.

It does seem like leadership is getting their crap together and plotting things out well in advance, which is why the movies were put on hold for a bit and the Obi-Wan series was delayed, so hopefully moving forward everything is a bit more consistent. I just really wish they took that approach for the sequel trilogy because, while I enjoyed VII and loved VIII, IX was a pretty brutal disappointment in wrapping the entire saga together.

You'll come around some day and realize IX is amazing

haha that's like me telling you the same thing about VIII. Very unlikely that I'll ever enjoy it more than I already do. Half-baked fetch quest plot with macguffins that don't make sense on a basic level, and decently unsatisfying endings for all the characters. It'll be tough for me to come around to liking it as more than just a gorgeous spectacle to look at unfort.

Yes...let the negativity flow through you.

Going back to the "Rey's dadio is a failed clone" deal, I haven't read the novel but I am really wondering how exactly that would even make in-universe sense. If we're to believe Palpatine in TROS is a clone that's being physically destroyed from the inside out by Palpatine's power, wtf happened with Rey's dad to just give him a normal personality and no physical ailments? 1) he doesn't LOOK like Palpatine, so the whole "clone" thing is sorta hard to slap on him to begin with considering how clones have historically been presented in SW, but also 2) I figured, going by what TROS shows us, that Palpatine clones are only "activated" when he needs a new vessel.

So how the frig did Rey's dad, a "failed Palpatine clone", fend off Palpatine's spirit... or power.... or essence.... or whatever actually gets passed from body-to-body and just end up a regular dude?

ABRAAAMSSS!!!