Politics

Topic   Podcast Recommendations - Submissions Wanted!

DiamondDave
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 4 Reviews
* 11-Nov-2017(#1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx4ltQhdlhg

Really enjoying this discussion so far, my favorite line is probably "...If you're not with us, you're a white supremacist." Usually don't get to listen to someone getting protested by hyper-liberal activists, very good talk on child activists, university culture and free speech and the fallacies one can fall in regarding political alignment and stubbornness when you haven't even lived a portion of your life yet.

Moves on to the Holocaust and wider psychology later.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 16-Nov-2017(#2)
"I consider myself like a very left-leaning classical progressive person and that's confusing because growing up the left was always the party of free speech. I felt like I was on the right side of social issues but as time has progressed since I finished college more and more I feel alienated by my own political identity. In terms of free speech like yeah like you said the right the people on the right are the ones that invite you and so I'm confused. I think a lot of people feel the same way who grew up like classical progressives but feeling alienated from their own political home. I feel like I have no identity anymore. I don't know where I stand on which or which party to identify." - Ethan

This was what stood out to me in the conversation. Sounds very familiar to me. I'm also a pretty liberal person on social issues. I don't understand the left's aversion to free speech. I think myself and other millennials were sold on the idea that one side is tolerant and open, while the other side is intolerant and closed. I've since learned over the years it can be very much the opposite. Ethan's point about people on the right inviting Peterson, inviting other progressives on their shows... It's true. You go to these progressive channels and a lot of times they have comments turned off on their videos and fat chance of seeing anyone outside of their ideology hosted.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm a fan of Ethan and Hilas stuff on YT and Jordan Peterson is always great to listen to. The guy is brilliant.
DiamondDave
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 4 Reviews
* 16-Nov-2017(#3)
He's a very smart cookie, liked listening to him a lot. And yes, that stuck out to me too, because it's very true.
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
* 16-Nov-2017(#4)
The term "classical-progressive" is regressive. "Classical-liberal" perhaps?
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#5)
Just posting the Hugh Mungus series if anyone hasn't seen it. Stuff like this is why so few people call themselves feminist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aVna3HohXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UAFJTAcMX0&t=6s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoC0Uua-rHs
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
17-Nov-2017(#6)
My opinion is if you have a penis and identify as male you shouldnt be calling yourself a feminist. Its a silly notion in itself.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#7)
My observation is you can tell how far gone someone is by knowing how far gone the person they're attacking is.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#8)
Feeb wrote:
> My observation is you can tell how far gone someone is by knowing how far gone the
> person they're attacking is.

Can you elaborate a bit?
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#9)
If someone is attacking "feminists" that cues me off that they're at least as far to the right as a feminist is to the left. Not many of these polar types tackling everyday, moderate issues.

Seems to be a good thermometer so far.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#10)
Feeb wrote:
> If someone is attacking "feminists" that cues me off that they're at least as far
> to the right as a feminist is to the left. Not many of these polar types tackling
> everyday, moderate issues.
>
> Seems to be a good thermometer so far.

Gotcha. So h3h3 is "far-right" to you. You must be "far-left" then too.

Do you even think about the stuff you say before you type it? You speak so matter-of-fact. Kind of come off pretentious. You seem more interested in attacking others than actually having a conversation. Go back and just look at your forum posts. Snark. Snark. Snark. Very little replies.

There is a reason you're not getting much feedback. Honestly not trying to attack you. You sometimes have interesting input. It just gets buried in this pompous, juvenile bullcrap. What you said above makes absolutely no sense.
Feeb
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* 17-Nov-2017(#11)
I'd be interested in who you perceive I was attacking.

The qualifier "in my experience" should help you to understand I'm posting something most would recognize as opinion. As opposed to saying something like "fact" or other misrepresentation of my thought.

I get plenty of feedback from the people I want to engage.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#12)
Feeb wrote:
> I'd be interested in who you perceive I was attacking.

Anyone you disagree with. That seems to be your goal here. You saw what was posted, probably didn't watch any of it, and thought of a way to dismiss it by really faulty logic.

"You're pointing out and condemning extremist. You must be an extremist."

How about watch the video before commenting or go do something else?

> The qualifier "in my experience" should help you to understand I'm posting something
> most would recognize as opinion. As opposed to saying something like "fact" or other
> misrepresentation of my thought.

That's fine if it's your opinion. It just doesn't make any sense. It leaves no room for moderates. Fairly sure your intention was just to insult me for posting it, regardless if it made any sense or not. I'm not emotionally invested in anything here, just annoying seeing these kind of responses from you for the 1000th time.

In all seriousness, I really am just hoping you knock this off. I wish more people participated in this forum. I think people see stuff like what you post and don't bother.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#13)
I was actually attacking anyone who wastes time attacking another's ideology. Which is why I made an effort to say feminist are as far gone as those who would waste time on them. It only pertains to you if that's you.

I'm not concerned about how people view what I post as long as they realize I make every effort to support my view with observable and documented truth.

If you feel attacked, as I've said a few times to you in particular, it's because you more than anyone always want to take things down a different path when you're challenged. It feels personal. And then you try to straddle the fence with crap like:

"Honestly not trying to attack you"

That doesn't excuse your puerile, naive and misinforming insecurity.

If you don't want to attack me don't. Attack my view with substance.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#14)
Feeb wrote:
> I was actually attacking anyone who wastes time attacking another's ideology. Which
> is why I made an effort to say feminist are as far gone as those who would waste
> time on them. It only pertains to you if that's you.

Well, you do this very often. Which is why what you said made even less sense. I don't think you're an extremist.

> I'm not concerned about how people view what I post as long as they realize I make
> every effort to support my view with observable and documented truth.
>
> If you feel attacked, as I've said a few times to you in particular, it's because
> you more than anyone always want to take things down a different path when you're
> challenged. It feels personal.

Absolutely wrong. I do not take anything posted here, or on the internet for that matter, personally. I actually get something out of this forum. I like hearing why people disagree and have vastly different opinions. As I said, just go back and look at your post history. It speaks volumes. Most of the time, I don't think you're looking for anything but to stroke your ego.
DiamondDave
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 4 Reviews
17-Nov-2017(#15)
Namechange suggested and approved. Submit podcasts for review and public shaming
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
17-Nov-2017(#16)
If you've reviewed my post history then you'll see that I post because it's not responsible to be taciturn in the face of misinformation and puerile naivety. Don't see many memes or Hugh Mongous videos in there.

I did watch your videos. I feel even more justified in my observation on feminists and the people who feel the need to "trigger" them.



Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 18-Nov-2017(#17)
Very informative. Tries to address most controversies through web questions.

Sam Harris Waking Up - What You Need to Know About Climate Change

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-you-ne...

A very interesting pod cast all around. Discussions are quite respectful but often the speech is slow. Pump it up to 2x speed.

Jordan Peterson has been on twice.
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
18-Nov-2017(#18)
So that happened by Huffpost is a Podcast I listen to.

Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
19-Nov-2017(#19)
Philosophize this!

A decent one for all us thinking dorks. Mostly just a primer and history of thought but a good listen. Tons of content.
DiamondDave
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 4 Reviews
20-Nov-2017(#20)
If you guys have links to specific podcast episodes that you think we'd be interested in listening to (and the chances of that climb with ease of access, such as through a link), share those as well.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 20-Nov-2017(#21)
Well known one about stories behind tall tales, monsters etc. Lore podcast. Easy to pass an hour on the elliptical.

http://www.lorepodcast.com
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
20-Nov-2017(#22)
Here is So That Happened.

Ironically enough based on our recent discussions this past weeks episode was title "Political men continue to be disgusting" lol. Have fun.

Listen to Political Men Continue To Be Disgusting by So That Happened #np on #SoundCloud
https://soundcloud.com/so-that-happened-1/politica...
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
20-Nov-2017(#23)
Preet Barhara also has a new podcast his first episode went over what happened when Trump fired him. Its really interesting. Not very provocative. But if youre a boring person like me I think youll enjoy his cast.

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/preetbharara
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
20-Nov-2017(#24)
Cool. Good idea to do this I'm always looking for something new to listen to.
Karaiya
Gold Good Trader Has Written 1 Review
* 20-Nov-2017(#25)
I try not to listen to too many political podcast with the angry pundits. Although, my guilty pleasure is listening to Rachel Maddows cast of her nightly show every morning as I get ready for work. Shes like my lesbian moongoddess something about her makes me swoon. love I think its the haircut.

There is also a fantastic podcast called Politically Reactive with Hari Kondabalu and W. Kamau Bell. Its current season is over but they ahoild have a new one soon hopefully.

Sadly, I dont have any right wing podcasts oe conservative podcasts I listen to although I do sometimes switch to Rush Limbaugh when I feel he like I'm becoming too saturated with liberal progressive talking points. Also, I love his voice. Liberal radio needs a podcaster with his voice.

ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
20-Nov-2017(#26)
Karaiya wrote:

> Sadly, I dont have any right wing podcasts oe conservative podcasts I listen to although
> I do sometimes switch to Rush Limbaugh when I feel he like I'm becoming too saturated
> with liberal progressive talking points. Also, I love his voice. Liberal radio
> needs a podcaster with his voice.

Try this podcast http://www.fdrpodcasts.com

I've been a contractor for years and often work by myself for hours at a time. I've tried TONS of different podcasts over the years and this one has always been my favorite. The Call-In shows are excellent too.

Will definitely be checking out some of these recommendations.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
20-Nov-2017(#27)
Contractor. Tough job. Podcasts certainly a godsend. Keep fighting the good fight brother.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Nov(#28)
Wow. Powerful.

NSFW (language)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gm3CJePn0

Saw this on someblackguy's Youtube channel talking about it. Had to share the original video.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Nov(#29)
Just started. I'm guessing the reveal is the fat white guy is lip syncing a black artists song? We'll soon find out.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Nov(#30)
Nice! Glad to be right but definitely wrong on that one.

Cool share.

Love the words at the end. Amen to that.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Nov(#31)
Feeb wrote:
> Nice! Glad to be right but definitely wrong on that one.
>
> Cool share.
>
> Love the words at the end. Amen to that.

I really liked it as well. They both had points. In those points was throughout, very terrible positions and condemnations of each other based on.... race. The style is really good. I like that they both represented varying degrees of the political divide and ended up realizing that there was a person on the other side of that table.
DiamondDave
GameTZ Gold Subscriber 350 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader Has Written 4 Reviews
* 1-Dec(#32)
Very cool video, thanks Nines. That was profound.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Dec(#33)
Here's the video I originally saw it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF4Ts6VLZD4&t=0s
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#34)
Really digging this "Change My Mind" series from Crowder. Latest one is really good and is a 2nd part on the topic of abortion. Even if you are hard on one side or another, it's really interesting to see real college student's rationale for their views on important topics. Some of them, I wonder what happened with higher education.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUd6Z_zyXZM&t=0s

He's done one on Kwanzaa, gun rights, gender, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crowd...
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#35)
College students are kids. Kids in the sense that they have minimal experience. Not sure why anyone would care about their input.

The people that teach college students may be worth talking to.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#36)
Let's do a podcast specifically for people that did not go to college. Let's see what they think and know. Why didn't they go to college? Already have skills? No money? No intelligence? No interest? With their choices why should their life be one way or another?

Let's talk to the people who made choices. Let's see who they blame.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#37)
Feeb wrote:
> College students are kids. Kids in the sense that they have minimal experience.
> Not sure why anyone would care about their input.

I think you're wrong. They are not children. I care because I want to know what college educated folks have to say on important topics. Some of them may be freshmen, some already have been influenced on various political subjects by their professors, etc.

They can vote.

> The people that teach college students may be worth talking to.

Not wrong. Do enjoy lectures from various professors. Each has it's value.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#38)
I'm right. They have minimal experience. Colleges are just like every other environ. There are the doldrums and there are the pinnacles.

Talk to college drop outs or equivalent aged kids. Who gives a crap. Because they are in a college means nothing. They are 20 years old.


Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#39)
Universities in particular have populations of kids who know dick about most subjects. They have business schools, art schools, agriculture, sciences.

I could easily make a fool out of 100 kids in a day just knowing who I'm talking to.

The fetus question is an easy answer. Take it from mom and see if it's an individual.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#40)
Feeb wrote:
> They have minimal experience. Colleges are just like every other environ.
> There are the doldrums and there are the pinnacles.

So you'd agree that this is the case for non-college educated folks as well? Doldrums and pinnacles? Personally, I find it troubling that people who aren't bright are admitted in the first place. Should be a meritocracy. Should be an honor to attend and graduate. The fact that it's like every other environment should be a point of concern.

> Talk to college drop outs or equivalent aged kids. Who gives a crap. Because they
> are in a college means nothing. They are 20 years old.

Aren't you interested at all in the reasons various groups and people think and their reasons for it? If not, why the interest in that book I sent? If I was a leftist and looked at the state of our government, I would want to understand very well the reasons people voted for the politicians and ideas I so vehemently reject.
MikeyWhoa
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader
30-Dec(#41)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>> They have minimal experience. Colleges are just like every other environ.
>> There are the doldrums and there are the pinnacles.
>
> So you'd agree that this is the case for non-college educated folks as well? Doldrums
> and pinnacles? Personally, I find it troubling that people who aren't bright are
> admitted in the first place. Should be a meritocracy. Should be an honor to attend
> and graduate. The fact that it's like every other environment should be a point of
> concern.
>
>> Talk to college drop outs or equivalent aged kids. Who gives a crap. Because they
>> are in a college means nothing. They are 20 years old.
>
> Aren't you interested in all in the reasons various groups and people think and their
> reasons for it? If not, why the interest in that book I sent? If I was a leftist
> and looked at the state of our government, I would want to understand very well the
> reasons people voted for the politicians and ideas I so vehemently reject.


I do, and I've tried. With you specifically. And like you specifically, they tend to run away from any tough questioning. I've tried diving headfirst into the Donald bubble. They seem to prefer memes and kek as opposed to the issues. So I usually join in on the crapposting instead.


Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#42)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>> They have minimal experience. Colleges are just like every other environ.
>> There are the doldrums and there are the pinnacles.
>
> So you'd agree that this is the case for non-college educated folks as well? Doldrums
> and pinnacles? Personally, I find it troubling that people who aren't bright are
> admitted in the first place. Should be a meritocracy. Should be an honor to attend
> and graduate. The fact that it's like every other environment should be a point of
> concern.
>
>> Talk to college drop outs or equivalent aged kids. Who gives a crap. Because they
>> are in a college means nothing. They are 20 years old.
>
> Aren't you interested in all in the reasons various groups and people think and their
> reasons for it? If not, why the interest in that book I sent? If I was a leftist
> and looked at the state of our government, I would want to understand very well the
> reasons people voted for the politicians and ideas I so vehemently reject.

I'm not a politician so my response to that is ambivalent. I want to learn about people and things and understand them, but I don't sympathize with all of them.

These videos and articles claiming college kids say and believe silly things are just more disinformation and an attempt at painting the system as damaged. There is a merit based admissions- but you don't have to know anything about politics or the world and you can have your own views. Common sense is not a requirement either. Admissions are concerned with potential to learn and achieve- they want to now students can be taught and make a ROI.

This is a problem. If you talk to the average class of professional students you might walk away thinking 75% or more of them are anti-social to a degree. I know I see that. The system selects for students who do not have a passion to learn in many cases- you end up with ho hum members of society who care about nothing but personal success. It's definitely broken.

That book you sent me is pretty cool. The citations and links to articles are especially nice. If you've read it you know that the first 10 pages require the reader do decide that either the White House or the intelligence agencies are spreading misinformation. This may be because he wrote the book before the "fake news" propaganda on social media was proven to exist, or because he chooses to ignore it. For me, that's hard to get passed. I'm almost finished with it but when his thesis of "fake news" is contingent on not believing a certain few media outlets and the intelligence community- there's no basis on accepted fact just some opinions and choice views. I'll try to finish it this weekend.

The means of convincing and changing minds he's pointing out have been employed by certain groups to proselytize literally and figuratively for thousands of years. Minus the technology of course.
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
30-Dec(#43)
Most universities ARE competitive, state U's even more of late. To say they are not is inaccurate.

Community colleges are for HS grads who might need some remedial, or want to get a taste of higher ed for cheap, or have a vocational goal that gets them two years of gen ed to move on. Gen Ed sucks, have to use AP to get around, lots of U's give credit, some just placement.

The online higher eds seem to be white collar vocational in emphasis, nice option for middle aged retraining. Big growth area.

Leave the abortion/choice question to the women, they obviously have the most skin in the game since they have to live with the kid inside their bodies for better part of a year then get him/her out safely. No man can have a valid opinion on what women's choices should be, it would be a sacrament if men got knocked up.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#44)
Feeb wrote:

> These videos and articles claiming college kids say and believe silly things are
> just more disinformation and an attempt at painting the system as damaged.

I don't think that's the goal of this series. I think it gets exposed a bit though. You admit below it IS damaged. The format I really like... "Come have a seat. I'll be respectful. Change my mind." At no point did I think Crowder was there to proselytize. It's a conversation and one that is lacking in modern society.

>There
> is a merit based admissions- but you don't have to know anything about politics
> or the world and you can have your own views. Common sense is not a requirement either.
> Admissions are concerned with potential to learn and achieve- they want to now students
> can be taught and make a ROI.

Government perverts education and is so bad at it you think these folks are clueless children after 15 years of schooling.

> This is a problem. If you talk to the average class of professional students you
> might walk away thinking 75% or more of them are anti-social to a degree. I know
> I see that. The system selects for students who do not have a passion to learn in
> many cases- you end up with ho hum members of society who care about nothing but
> personal success. It's definitely broken.
>
> That book you sent me is pretty cool. The citations and links to articles are especially
> nice. If you've read it you know that the first 10 pages require the reader do
> decide that either the White House or the intelligence agencies are spreading misinformation.
> This may be because he wrote the book before the "fake news" propaganda on social
> media was proven to exist, or because he chooses to ignore it. For me, that's hard
> to get passed. I'm almost finished with it but when his thesis of "fake news"
> is contingent on not believing a certain few media outlets and the intelligence community-
> there's no basis on accepted fact just some opinions and choice views. I'll try
> to finish it this weekend.
>
> The means of convincing and changing minds he's pointing out have been employed
> by certain groups to proselytize literally and figuratively for thousands of years.
> Minus the technology of course.

Glad you've enjoyed the book.

> The fetus question is an easy answer. Take it from mom and see if it's an individual.

Poor logic. Maybe you should just check out the clip.

Future generations will look back on the practice of abortion much the same way we look back on slavery. Absolutely immoral and barbaric.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#45)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>
>> These videos and articles claiming college kids say and believe silly things are
>> just more disinformation and an attempt at painting the system as damaged.
>
> I don't think that's the goal of this series. I think it gets exposed a bit though.
> You admit below it IS damaged.

The education is different than the admissions. Two different ideas.


The format I really like... "Come have a seat. I'll
> be respectful. Change my mind." At no point did I think Crowder was there to proselytize.
> It's a conversation and one that is lacking in modern society.

And then he immediately grabs his drink and starts running his hand through his hair. Body language screams disrespect and patronizing. Tone screams patronizing. Knowledge of the relationship between a mother and a fetus is lacking. The questioner is not qualified to play this role.

>
> |>There
>> is a merit based admissions- but you don't have to know anything about politics
>> or the world and you can have your own views. Common sense is not a requirement
> either.
>> Admissions are concerned with potential to learn and achieve- they want to now
> students
>> can be taught and make a ROI.
>
> Government perverts education and is so bad at it you think these folks are clueless
> children after 15 years of schooling.
>

That depends entirely on your education. Time does not make you educated.


>> This is a problem. If you talk to the average class of professional students you
>> might walk away thinking 75% or more of them are anti-social to a degree. I know
>> I see that. The system selects for students who do not have a passion to learn
> in
>> many cases- you end up with ho hum members of society who care about nothing but
>> personal success. It's definitely broken.
>>
>> That book you sent me is pretty cool. The citations and links to articles are
> especially
>> nice. If you've read it you know that the first 10 pages require the reader
> do
>> decide that either the White House or the intelligence agencies are spreading
> misinformation.
>> This may be because he wrote the book before the "fake news" propaganda on
> social
>> media was proven to exist, or because he chooses to ignore it. For me, that's
> hard
>> to get passed. I'm almost finished with it but when his thesis of "fake news"
>> is contingent on not believing a certain few media outlets and the intelligence
> community-
>> there's no basis on accepted fact just some opinions and choice views. I'll
> try
>> to finish it this weekend.
>>
>> The means of convincing and changing minds he's pointing out have been employed
>> by certain groups to proselytize literally and figuratively for thousands of years.
>> Minus the technology of course.
>
> Glad you've enjoyed the book.
>
>> The fetus question is an easy answer. Take it from mom and see if it's an individual.
>
> Poor logic. Maybe you should just check out the clip.
>
Watched the clip.

It's simple vocabulary. He asked what if the fetus is an individual. By definition it cannot be independent. Lack of knowledge. The term parasite is used by medical professionals often to describe how a child develops. Nothing surprising to those in the know. Easy to learn the gestational science from reputable sources. Even Wikipedia has a decent write up. Most (>90%) abortions are performed at less than 12 weeks of development. Many are still embryos.


> Future generations will look back on the practice of abortion much the same way we
> look back on slavery. Absolutely immoral and barbaric.

Not likely. Abortion has become medically feasible and safe and is a service women have sought for longer than the basics of pregnancy were even understood. The morality of any abortion would require understanding the entirety of the gestation and eventual living conditions of the child etc. That's an easy thing to scream but a hard statement to make as a blanket. A free living human does not exist until birth- defined as independence from outside nourishment or womb. No abortion should occur late term, most agree to that. Forcing someone to birth a child is not an argument anyone should take. Forcing someone to abort is not either. Women have always been making this decision- everytime they learn that they are pregnant, regardless of what we think.

ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#46)
Feeb wrote:

> That's not logic. Its simple vocabulary He asked what if the fetus is an individual.
> By definition it cannot be independent. Lack of knowledge.
>The term parasite is used
> by medical professionals often to describe how a child develops. Nothing surprising
> to those in the know.

Still poor logic. Being independent or not does not determine whether someone is an individual. Babies and children are dependent. My wife works in hospice and works with older folks who are quite dependent. Broadly speaking, anything dependent is a 'parasite.' I just think it's a horrible term and way to look at babies, children, and the elderly.

>> Future generations will look back on the practice of abortion much the same way
> we
>> look back on slavery. Absolutely immoral and barbaric.

> Not likely. Abortion has become medically feasible and safe and is a service women
> have sought for longer than the basics of pregnancy were even understood.

Just because something is medically feasible doesn't mean it's moral. Circumcision is generally safe, but is extremely painful for the infant and unnecessary. I'd argue that's immoral and barbaric too to unnecessarily clip off body parts of those who cannot consent.


> The morality
> of any abortion would require understanding the entirety of the gestation and eventual
> living conditions of the child etc.

How does understanding gestation and the complications of pregnancy/birth have anything to do with the choice to end a life or not? Science does not answer questions of morality.

Murder is either wrong or it isn't. The way you are trying to define what qualifies as life is highly flawed. It's like if I got a puppy and decided I couldn't afford it so I killed it. "Oh well, it was dependent on me and a drain on my resources. It couldn't live on it's own anyway."


Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
30-Dec(#47)
when babies after birth, children, elderly folks and puppies,etc are required to grow inside other mature humans we will have a parallel!

your patience is most admirable Feeb, the rebirth of the Know Nothing party has worn me out.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 30-Dec(#48)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>
>> That's not logic. Its simple vocabulary He asked what if the fetus is an individual.
>> By definition it cannot be independent. Lack of knowledge.
> |>The term parasite is used
>> by medical professionals often to describe how a child develops. Nothing surprising
>> to those in the know.
>
> Still poor logic. Being independent or not does not determine whether someone is
> an individual. Babies and children are dependent. My wife works in hospice and works
> with older folks who are quite dependent. Broadly speaking, anything dependent is
> a 'parasite.' I just think it's a horrible term and way to look at babies, children,
> and the elderly.

I personally would not use the term parasite. Biologists generally accept the idea that life begins when a fetus is able to survive outside the womb. Individual means existing as a distinct entity. In this sense the words independent and individual are nearly synonymous. Any other sense of individuality is ludicrous in even a term child. If you're looking into something like a "soul" there is no need to try and square the circle. That's faith based. Supernatural. Which, I did not say is impossible, yet that magisterium has no empirical leg to stand on.

>
> |>> Future generations will look back on the practice of abortion much the same way
>> we
> |>> look back on slavery. Absolutely immoral and barbaric.
>
>> Not likely. Abortion has become medically feasible and safe and is a service women
>> have sought for longer than the basics of pregnancy were even understood.
>
> Just because something is medically feasible doesn't mean it's moral. Circumcision
> is generally safe, but is extremely painful for the infant and unnecessary. I'd argue
> that's immoral and barbaric too to unnecessarily clip off body parts of those who
> cannot consent.
>

There is medical application for male circumcision. Female, yes, it's bad.

Is the decision one of justice for the mother over justice for the developing child? The rights of an established free-living sentient being over the rights of a dependent embryo / fetus which 99.99% of the time has neither sentience nor sense of self at time of abortion?

Established humans have an ethical right to personal autonomy. They get to make choices concerning their bodies and the path of their life. This has always been a basic tenet of any ethical free and democratic society.
>
>> The morality
>> of any abortion would require understanding the entirety of the gestation and
> eventual
>> living conditions of the child etc.
>
> How does understanding gestation and the complications of pregnancy/birth have anything
> to do with the choice to end a life or not? Science does not answer questions of
> morality.

However throwing around a word like morality without understanding the ethical implications is not valid. There is an ethical argument to be made that population control and preventing the birth of unwanted children is the correct thing. Forcing morals on others is unethical.

>
> Murder is either wrong or it isn't. The way you are trying to define what qualifies
> as life is highly flawed. It's like if I got a puppy and decided I couldn't afford
> it so I killed it. "Oh well, it was dependent on me and a drain on my resources.
> It couldn't live on it's own anyway."
>
>

People do that all the time with animals. I have euthanized three cats today from animal control that were rather healthy yet not adoptable. Clients euthanize pets with easily treatable conditions often due to finances. I turn away euthanasia a few times a year where a client goes to assisted living and relatives don't want the pets- another vet does them.

Don't be fooled into believing this is actually about preserving life. It is not. It is about forcing birth and then letting the dice fall. Quite unethical.


Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
30-Dec(#49)
Osiris wrote:
> when babies after birth, children, elderly folks and puppies,etc are required to
> grow inside other mature humans we will have a parallel!
>
> your patience is most admirable Feeb, the rebirth of the Know Nothing party has worn
> me out.

I enjoy conversing with Nines. He has well based arguments in tune with his experience. It's good to see that.
dracula
Bronze Good Trader Has Written 7 Reviews
31-Dec(#50)
Black Pigeon Speaks runs circles around the other podcasters, at least in terms of his editing. Most of these guys are just talking heads, he makes a full video, high quality to boot, once every few days, I thought at first he had an entire team helping him, but it really is just one dude.

https://youtu.be/6-tPTdm6xd4
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#51)
Really like BPS. Will be checking this out.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 31-Dec(#52)
Feeb wrote:

>Any other sense of individuality is ludicrous in even a term
> child. If you're looking into something like a "soul" there is no need to try
> and square the circle. That's faith based. Supernatural. Which, I did not say is
> impossible, yet that magisterium has no empirical leg to stand on.

I do not believe in 'souls.' Am not religious at all. I don't think I need a faith based reason to call abortion barbaric and immoral.

> There is medical application for male circumcision. Female, yes, it's bad.

I disagree. Awful practice rooted in Judaism. It's like cutting off your arm so you don't break it later in life. Barbaric and unnecessary.


> However throwing around a word like morality without understanding the ethical implications
> is not valid. There is an ethical argument to be made that population control and
> preventing the birth of unwanted children is the correct thing. Forcing morals on
> others is unethical.

Forcing morals (which I'm not doing) is immoral? What kind of logistical circle are you setting up here? If calling murder immoral is 'forcing' morals, then I'll go ahead and own that. Just don't think it's the case. Morality is NOT subjective.


> People do that all the time with animals. I have euthanized three cats today from
> animal control that were rather healthy yet not adoptable. Clients euthanize pets
> with easily treatable conditions often due to finances. I turn away euthanasia a
> few times a year where a client goes to assisted living and relatives don't want
> the pets- another vet does them.

Turns my stomach. Even more so when people kill their babies for financial convenience.

> Don't be fooled into believing this is actually about preserving life. It is not.
> It is about forcing birth and then letting the dice fall. Quite unethical.

100% disagree with your premise and logic.

It IS the abortion discussion though. Usually doesn't go anywhere in my experience. You'll keep moving the goal post on exactly what a fetus is. I'll just keep calling it what it is. A life.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 31-Dec(#53)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>
> |>Any other sense of individuality is ludicrous in even a term
>> child. If you're looking into something like a "soul" there is no need to
> try
>> and square the circle. That's faith based. Supernatural. Which, I did not say
> is
>> impossible, yet that magisterium has no empirical leg to stand on.
>
> I do not believe in 'souls." Am not religious at all. I don't think I need a faith
> based reason to call abortion barbaric and immoral.

Then your mind is made up.



>> There is medical application for male circumcision. Female, yes, it's bad.
>
> I disagree. Awful practice rooted in Judaism. It's like cutting off your arm so you
> don't break it later in life. Barbaric and unnecessary.

Doesn't matter if you disagree. Circumcision is performed for hygienic reasons. The prepuce and particularly the foreskin is highly susceptible to infection and is a nidus which can hold high numbers of STDs, particularly aids. This is medically advised in certain places and is even performed voluntarily on adults.

>
>> However throwing around a word like morality without understanding the ethical
> implications
>> is not valid. There is an ethical argument to be made that population control
> and
>> preventing the birth of unwanted children is the correct thing. Forcing morals
> on
>> others is unethical.
>
> Forcing morals (which I'm not doing) is immoral? What kind of logistical circle are
> you setting up here? If calling murder immoral is 'forcing' morals, then I'll go
> ahead and own that. Just don't think it's the case. Morality is NOT subjective.

Absolutely forcing morals is unethical. I'm referring to making laws to force birth as forcing morals. Absolutely morality is subjective. Different societies have different takes on what is moral. There are indigenous societies that have radically different moral codes. Hard to argue it's not without believing in a higher power.

You may be confusing the ideas of morality and ethics.

Murder is the taking of a human life. The medically accepted beginning of human life is not conception. In fact, there is no absolute consensus- it's patently obvious that a child develops until term because it must to survive outside of the mother.


>
>
>> People do that all the time with animals. I have euthanized three cats today from
>> animal control that were rather healthy yet not adoptable. Clients euthanize pets
>> with easily treatable conditions often due to finances. I turn away euthanasia
> a
>> few times a year where a client goes to assisted living and relatives don't
> want
>> the pets- another vet does them.
>
> Turns my stomach. Even more so when people kill their babies for financial convenience.

It would not if you had a deeper understanding of the quality of life and suffering. I draw the line at places, yes, but having a pulse and being alive does not equate to a desirable condition of living.

>
>
>> Don't be fooled into believing this is actually about preserving life. It is
> not.
>> It is about forcing birth and then letting the dice fall. Quite unethical.
>
> 100% disagree with your premise and logic.

You do not understand logic or ethics it seems.

>
> It IS the abortion discussion though. Usually doesn't go anywhere in my experience.
> You'll keep moving the goal post on exactly what a fetus is. I'll just keep calling
> it what it is. A life

I have tried to help you have enough information to understand the argument. The video you posted depicts a person stating his ideas as facts. Some of his statements are fallacious. He seems to want to be a libertarian with his citing of vague precepts and "laws" yet does not see the flaw in forcing pregnancies and birth. The government has no place in this argument.

I would advise you to not participate in abortion.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#54)
Feeb wrote:

> Doesn't matter if you disagree. Circumcision is performed for hygienic reasons.
> The prepuce and particularly the foreskin is highly susceptible to infection and
> is a nidus which can hold high numbers of STDs, particularly aids. This is medically
> advised in certain places and is even performed voluntarily on adults.

Did you not understand the arm analogy? Yeah sure, it may be "safer" without certain body parts. An idiotic reason though. You could use the exact same argument to promote a lot of unnecessary surgery.

Adults can do whatever they want with their own bodies.


> Absolutely forcing morals is unethical. I'm referring to making laws to force birth
> as forcing morals. Absolutely morality is subjective. Different societies have different
> takes on what is moral. There are indigenous societies that have radically different
> moral codes. Hard to argue it's not without believing in a higher power.

Wrong on so many levels. The fact you think morality is subjective is troubling and says a lot about what you believe and why. Don't think we're going to get anywhere here. Just letting you know I reject this notion 100% and believe it to be a great cancer in the world.

Maybe a good idea for a thread or discussion later.

Happy New Year.


Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#55)
Save the babies and kill the Muslims.

Study up on some ethics. And try not to get so emotional and attack people you don't know. I'm 100% confident I can run circles around you in any debate on morality. I'm just trying to be decent and hear you out.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 31-Dec(#56)
Feeb wrote:

> Study up on some ethics. And try not to get so emotional and attack people you don't
> know. I'm 100% confident I can run circles around you in any debate on morality.
> I'm just trying to be decent and hear you out.

No emotional investment in any conversation here. Quite confident that I know a LOT more than you on the subject of ethics though. You seem really ignorant on the subject.

Anyway.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#57)
You don't know much if you believe in moral absolutism. About the world, right and wrong or the history of the universe.

Give us an example of something that is always immoral. Or vice versa if you'd rather.
MikeyWhoa
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader
31-Dec(#58)
A fetus is a human life as much as a ball of dough is a loaf of bread. That's why the "bun" needs to stay in the "oven" until it's "done."

ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#59)
Feeb wrote:
> You don't know much if you believe in moral absolutism. About the world, right
> and wrong or the history of the universe.

You don't know much if you believe in moral relativism.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
31-Dec(#60)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>> You don't know much if you believe in moral absolutism. About the world, right
>> and wrong or the history of the universe.
>
> You don't know much if you believe in moral relativism.

Moral relativism can be easily demonstrated. It is concrete. Absolutism. No. It cannot be demonstrated or proven. Kantian Deontological Ethics is the only argument that has even made me blink at the idea. The supposition of an existing set of rules... nope. There is where it ends. An infinite regress.

If you'd like I can let you borrow a volume at a time:

Great Books of the Western World (54 Volume Set) https://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&lo...
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
31-Dec(#61)
>
>Adults can do whatever they want with their own bodies.
>
>> Absolutely forcing morals is unethical. Im referring to making laws to force
> birth

An ironic juxtaposition...
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 31-Dec(#62)
He's arguing that the baby is not the adult's body. Makes sense with his set of definitions. Won't be long before the babies will need to pay their own birth bills. Free-loaders.
Osiris
300 Trade Quintuple Gold Good Trader
31-Dec(#63)
Feeb wrote:
> HeâÂ--Â--s arguing that the baby is not the adultâÂ--Â--s body. Makes sense with his set
> of definitions. Want be long before the babies will need to pay their own birth bills.
> Free-loaders.

In that circumstance, welcome to 2018! I am hopeful subtlety of argument will be appreciated more, nice to reflect upon.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#64)
Feeb wrote:

>> You don't know much if you believe in moral relativism.
>
> Moral relativism can be easily demonstrated. It is concrete. Absolutism. No. It cannot
> be demonstrated or proven. Kantian Deontological Ethics is the only argument that
> has even made me blink at the idea. The supposition of an existing set of rules...
> nope. There is where it ends. An infinite regress.

There is something you're just not getting here. If a society or culture sacrifices infants to a "sun god," it doesn't matter how they have different standards. The act is immoral, period. Same with cultures who marry children. Murder is immoral unless it was to preserve one's own life in a self defense scenario or a lifeboat scenario where ethics cannot be applied.

You seem to think what is good and evil is dependent on how certain societies and cultures interpret it. Practices like slavery were immoral 1,000 years ago, today, and will be 1,000 years from now regardless of where it is practiced and by whom.

That's cool you can go back in history and find different standards throughout different cultures. It tells you we have come a long way. Humans had some awful practices back then and we still do today. That doesn't answer the moral question though, which you seem to ignore in favor of scientific and historical explanations.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#65)
ninesalone wrote:
> Feeb wrote:
>
> |>> You don't know much if you believe in moral relativism.
>>
>> Moral relativism can be easily demonstrated. It is concrete. Absolutism. No. It
> cannot
>> be demonstrated or proven. Kantian Deontological Ethics is the only argument that
>> has even made me blink at the idea. The supposition of an existing set of rules...
>> nope. There is where it ends. An infinite regress.
>
> There is something you're just not getting here. If a society or culture sacrifices
> infants to a "sun god," it doesn't matter how they have different standards. The
> act is immoral, period. Same with cultures who marry children. Murder is immoral
> unless it was to preserve one's own life in a self defense scenario or a lifeboat
> scenario where ethics cannot be applied.
>
> You seem to think what is good and evil is dependent on how certain societies and
> cultures interpret it. Practices like slavery were immoral 1,000 years ago, today,
> and will be 1,000 years from now regardless of where it is practiced and by whom.
>
> That's cool you can go back in history and find different standards throughout different
> cultures. It tells you we have come a long way. Humans had some awful practices back
> then and we still do today. That doesn't answer the moral question though, which
> you seem to ignore in favor of scientific and historical explanations.

Your example is 101. Of course I get that.


Acknowledging something exists does not mean you advocate it, first of all. There are different degrees of relativism. I used to believe like you seem to, that there is universal morality. I was more of a "universal" and believed that no matter the society there are absolutes. I did not believe that all immoral acts were immoral at al times. As in torturing one to save many etc. There is clearly a situational "most" ethical decision. It's relative. This is not defined as moral relativism though.

I do not believe in that now because it is clear that no matter what my belief and desire is others exist and are practiced. I also do not believe there is ultimate truth in religion, tenets are often admirable but as a whole no. The source of most "morality" relies on a set of rules and an ultimate "judge" or "source." There is nothing to support that idea. There is support that life developed from substances without ideas such as morality and the rules evolved with it. There still exists "life" on that chain with no moral code.

Because I acknowledge this does not mean in any way that I believe it is ok to kill a child, sacrifice or enslave. Ironically, however, in the religions of the book all of these things were demanded from their moral sources.

Moral absolutism was a construct of religious philosophy in advocacy of a higher power. Clearly I do not ascribe morality to higher powers as the most immoral acts humans commit are often in the name of.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#66)
Feeb wrote:

> Acknowledging something exists does not mean you advocate it, first of all. There
> are different degrees of relativism. I used to believe like you seem to, that there
> is universal morality. I was more of a "universal" and believed that no matter
> the society there are absolutes.

What changed?


> I do not believe in that now because it is clear that no matter what my belief and
> desire is others exist and are practiced.

"Because immorality exists, morality/ethical standards are irrelevant."


>I also do not believe in religion. The
> source of most "morality" relies on a set of rules and an ultimate "judge"
> or "source." There is nothing to support that idea. There is support that life
> developed from substances without ideas such as morality and the rules evolved with
> it.

We agree here.

> Because I acknowledge this does not mean in any way that I believe it is ok to kill
> a child, sacrifice or enslave. Ironically, however, in the religions of the book
> all of these things were demanded from their moral sources.

True. Though in Christianity, most of this truly evil stuff happens in the Old Testament and Jesus is sent to save humanity, etc. God gets a bit nicer.

> Moral absolutism was a construct of religious philosophy in advocacy of a higher
> power. Clearly I do not ascribe morality to higher powers as the most immoral acts
> humans commit are often in the name of.

Nor do I. Though I do think the refined moral standards we have today owe a lot of that progress to Christianity and Christians. There's bad stuff there, but I think all too often atheist and and perhaps those who lean left ignore the good. Some of it is really good. Christianity has also been highly modernized compared to say, Islam. Christians are not only willing to have a conversation, but willing to be mocked without violent retort. There's been give and take, but more recently modern society is not taking the value Christianity offers. We both dismiss it scientifically, but I see the value in perhaps not the dogma, but the philosophy associated with it that fostered the greatest/freest/most peaceful/ places to live on earth.

Christians are right on abortion. We should value human life.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#67)
Quite simply- if there is moral absolutism then there is an absolute morality. This is simply a stealth way for sects of humanity to pass judgement on the species- without merit.

Show me the absolute morality and I will ascribe to it. This is the essence of agnosticism.

What changed with me is I became more intellectually mature and began to base my beliefs on my reason and experience as opposed to what my father told me to believe.

"Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity; it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, 'Try all things, hold fast by that which is good'; it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in him, it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern science. Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. That I take to be the agnostic faith, which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him."
-Aldous Huxley

In my view this is the basis of morality. Do not put forth that which you do not know as fact. If there is evil, this is its essence. Betrayal of reality. The deceiver.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#68)
Feeb wrote:
> Quite simply- if there is moral absolutism then there is an absolute morality. This
> is simply a stealth way for sects of humanity to pass judgement on the species- without
> merit.
>
> Show me the absolute morality and I will ascribe to it. This is the essence of agnosticism.

I'm not sure it's fully realized, but I do think the next renaissance will be primarily a moral one. We have gone astray and I fear it will get much worse.

Certain things we know are always immoral. For instance why do you think "sacrificing an infant to a sun god" is immoral? Clearly you have a moral standard which hopefully most of us share. I'm just applying that standard to the fetus, which you steadfastly deny humanity/ intrinsic value in favor of a flawed libertarian principle of "choice." We do not get to kill because we are free and have rights.

> "Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies
> in the rigorous application of a single principle. That principle is of great antiquity;
> it is as old as Socrates; as old as the writer who said, 'Try all things, hold fast
> by that which is good'; it is the foundation of the Reformation, which simply illustrated
> the axiom that every man should be able to give a reason for the faith that is in
> him, it is the great principle of Descartes; it is the fundamental axiom of modern
> science. Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect,
> follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration.
> And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are
> certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable. That I take to be the agnostic
> faith, which if a man keep whole and undefiled, he shall not be ashamed to look the
> universe in the face, whatever the future may have in store for him."
>
> Aldous Huxley

That's a really good quote. I wonder what he meant by "hold fast by that which is good?"
Without a society that values life and what we can point to as "good," science cannot flourish. Progress is slowed/halted.

> In my view this is the basis of morality. Do not put forth that which you do not
> know as fact.

Certain acts we all can agree are objectively immoral, as described above.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#69)
Objective reality is an important starting point. Creating a definition for when there is murder is not a freedom you have. Speaking of valuing "life" is naive if we mean in a purely biological sense.

Personally I do not condone abortion. I have seen terrible things happen during child birth, however. My own daughter was delivered with an apgar score of zero. She was not alive. The delivery team saved her. It's one of the worst things I've ever experienced. Seeing the realities of birth; it's not just bringing a sweet child into the world. It's not something anyone should be forced to endure. I love my child and would gladly suffer that again to have her; but it was difficult in many ways. We went into debt after the nearly 90k final bills from the prolonged hospital stay.

Knowing the ins and outs of the transition from the womb to independent life are very important to take part in any real debate about the true beginning of life. Life is not a purely scientific thing. A being has biological functions that grant it the state of being alive. Life is a state of humane and willful existence. The pursuit of happiness often applied. There is a philosophical tone to life. Human children do not even sense the world completely for nearly a year.

There are intricacies of human birth that most people arguing either side do not understand. Such as fetal shunts etc. The simple fact is that the fetus IS a dependent part of its mother. It shares her blood, uses her liver etc. until it leaves the womb.

I say these things, again, neither because I personally wish to force this on anyone nor to make any moral claim but because you cannot name murder without first clearly understanding the meaning of life. No one knows that answer.

I do not condone killing babies nor do I condone forcing births. Both are immoral acts.

If you believe one of those choices is always right, I believe your experience eventually will change that either way.

Valuing "life" is exactly what allowing personal freedoms is.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#70)
ninesalone wrote:

> Certain acts we all can agree are objectively immoral, as described above.

I know of no philosopher who has accepted that position.

"That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism."

-Huxley
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#71)
People who wish to misinform almost always flee from fact based debate.

Please do not accept misinformation.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#72)
I thought we had a nice conversation. Obviously we've hit a wall. Sorry you're offended. I thought maybe you came away from it with at least a better understanding.

I'm sorry I don't share your philosophy of indifference. Let it go. Move on.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#73)
It's a good idea to make sure users of a video game teader site aren't misinformed by a meme bot. Your assault on reason needs to be called out.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#74)
lol
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
1-Jan(#75)
If you think that's funny you aren't genuinely interested in debate anyway. I think you're more interested in trying to be right than you are about learning from others.

I genuinely like you and you engage which is cool. But I think you should seriously consider different POV more. It seems like whatever video or podcast you watched is your stance. That's cool, I respect that, but bullcrap is bullcrap.
ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#76)
Feeb wrote:
> If you think that's funny you aren't genuinely interested in debate anyway. I
> think you're more interested in trying to be right than you are about learning
> from others.
>
> I genuinely like you and you engage which is cool. But I think you should seriously
> consider different POV more. It seems like whatever video or podcast you watched
> is your stance. That's cool, I respect that, but bullcrap is bullcrap.

To be fair, a lot of what you post I think is ludicrous and/or illogical. Doesn't mean I disregard everything you say or believe you have some sinister motive. I think our discussion above was somewhat of a debate. There usually isn't a 'winner' though and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in sharing why I hold views and understanding why you hold yours. Otherwise I would have not responded in the first place.

Your story about you "growing up" as a reason for holding the views you do. I have a very similar story and sometimes when I'm discussing an issue with you it reminds me of my much younger self. I always joke with my wife and friends that if I had a time machine I'd go back 10 years and kick my own ass. I was much more assertive back then and held views very much the opposite of what I hold today.

I was that kid in the hallway in High School handing out Peta promotional stickers, brochures, etc. I had a hammer and sickle flag on my backpack. I got sent home and suspended for wearing my shirt with Jesus on it with a handgun that read: "Love Jesus, or he'll fudging kill you." Okay, maybe I was a bit of a nut. The only reason I changed so much is because I was so confrontational and had so many conversations over the years where I was willing to bend to superior logic. That and reading, challenging myself, etc.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
* 1-Jan(#77)
I was never a nut. I was a devout Christian and I realized that the world view was false.

My views may be ludicrous or illogical to you. They are always supported by the reality of fact. If you can show me facts to change my views then they will change. You have not.

I have clearly stated I am agnostic on all stances. It means I do not pretend to know something I don't have facts for. I'm open to all views. But will not tolerate dogmatic propaganda. No one should.

ninesalone
GameTZ Subscriber Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
5-Jan(#78)
Roger Stone and Stefan discuss the real corruption:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48kc7gqRzZE
MikeyWhoa
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader
5-Jan(#79)
Haven't watched the video yet. I guess Stone is taking a break from lobbying for more drone strikes in Somalia for Capstone Financial Group. Ironically CFG is headed up by Hillary Clinton supporter and donor, Darin Pastor.

Speaking of Stone, @ninesalone did you catch "Get Me Roger Stone" on Netflix? I'm wondering if it's worth the time.
Feeb
GameTZ Subscriber Double Gold Good Trader Global Trader - willing to trade internationally
5-Jan(#80)
I watched it. He's actually a likable guy. Crazy as crap though.

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