The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
Yes indeed. SW Extended materials have historically done some real stupid things in the past and will almost certainly do some real stupid things in the future. Hoping Earth dinosaurs is not one of them.
> Star Wars will always be in a galaxy far, far away. If they come to our galaxy, I
> call bullcrap.
>
>
If they come to our Galaxy it'll only happen so they can put product placement in Star Wars, and if they do that I'll stop watching anything from there on out.
Again, I doubt that’ll happen. If you look at the High Republic stuff, it all revolves around the “ancient times” of the SW galaxy - the use of the word “dinosaurs” on one white board likely pertains to weirdo extinct alien monsters the same way their use of the word “vehicle” pertains to landspeeders or star destroyers.
Also, they have no reason to include product placement within the stories considering most of them are going to be told via comics, and comics have included actual print ads within their pages for decades.
Ads can obviously be annoying but the argument can be made that there would be far less comics in general without ads - physical print is a dying business so ads are the only reason physical copies with high print runs still get produced. Even Image and other labels run ads in their books if the print run is larger than 5,000 issues or so (although they at least don’t place them in the middle of books like Marvel/DC).
Marvel and DC obviously have a ton of money but if they printed large runs of comics without ads they likely wouldn’t see a return that makes printing physically worth it. I’ll put up with an ad I can ignore to ensure physical copies continue to exist. I’d hate to never smell a fresh book again haha
Yah most of their issues run around 5,000 copies for a 1st print, so there’s no huge need to put ads in there. I would rather the ads stick to the back of the books from other labels but like I said, I have no issue ignoring them to ensure some of the books I’ve loved since I was a kid keep getting printed physically.
So for fellow dweebs who were left wondering about this, apparently the Episode IX novel confirms that the Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker was a clone of the Palpatine we knew from Episodes I-VI, and was only so degraded due to the cloned vessel being unable to withstand the OG Palpatine’s immense power.
I suppose that’s a better explanation than no explanation at all, or the common assumption that it was the tattered body from the first 6 movies having somehow survived Return of the Jedi. Though I do think that this was just the novel’s writer filling in blanks that were never considered when Abrams and Terrio were writing the movie itself, and that the film’s writers truly intended it to be the body from RotJ having survived the Second Death Star’s destruction. Otherwise it would have been so easy to include a simple line of (necessary) dialogue during Kylo Ren and Palpatine’s initial interaction to establish that it was a clone we were seeing as opposed to all the dialogue that seemed to insinuate it was the same Palpatine we had always seen. All we got was Dominic Monaghan’s character vaguely mentioning “clone technology” or something similar among a list of other possibilities for Palpatine’s return.
Still, I’m glad somebody offered a now-canon reason for why Palpatine was still around without it being a total cop-out. I mean cloning is still pretty “eh” anytime it’s used, especially when bringing back a dead character, but at least there is already a precedence in SW that cloning has always been a “thing” that happens from time to time. And I do think the novel’s way of establishing this info (by having Kylo Ren remember his teachings of the Clone Wars from when he was kid and recognize the equipment Palpatine was hooked up to as being prominent during that era) was pretty witty.
> Reys father was a failed Palpatine clone. They need to actually have a plan with
> whatever they do next and not just make it up as they go along.
As much as I feel like they're just making crap up as they go along, I looked further into it and apparently most of these plot points from the novel (like Palpatine being a clone in TROS) were indeed in the script but cut from the movie.
Either they're just saying that to save face, which I'd be inclined to believe at this point after the backlash toward TROS, or they should have left this crap in the actual movie so that the MOVIE made sense and not the novel. Either way you shake a stick at it, the movie dropped the ball on a lot of this.
It does seem like leadership is getting their crap together and plotting things out well in advance, which is why the movies were put on hold for a bit and the Obi-Wan series was delayed, so hopefully moving forward everything is a bit more consistent. I just really wish they took that approach for the sequel trilogy because, while I enjoyed VII and loved VIII, IX was a pretty brutal disappointment in wrapping the entire saga together.
haha that's like me telling you the same thing about VIII. Very unlikely that I'll ever enjoy it more than I already do. Half-baked fetch quest plot with macguffins that don't make sense on a basic level, and decently unsatisfying endings for all the characters. It'll be tough for me to come around to liking it as more than just a gorgeous spectacle to look at unfort.
Going back to the "Rey's dadio is a failed clone" deal, I haven't read the novel but I am really wondering how exactly that would even make in-universe sense. If we're to believe Palpatine in TROS is a clone that's being physically destroyed from the inside out by Palpatine's power, wtf happened with Rey's dad to just give him a normal personality and no physical ailments? 1) he doesn't LOOK like Palpatine, so the whole "clone" thing is sorta hard to slap on him to begin with considering how clones have historically been presented in SW, but also 2) I figured, going by what TROS shows us, that Palpatine clones are only "activated" when he needs a new vessel.
So how the frig did Rey's dad, a "failed Palpatine clone", fend off Palpatine's spirit... or power.... or essence.... or whatever actually gets passed from body-to-body and just end up a regular dude?
The clone "failed" in the sense that it was Force-insensitive. Therefore, no burning out.
Remember, the clone troopers were clones too. Presumably without Palpatine possessing the body, it was able to be educated the way the clone troopers were, and develop its own identity and have a life of its own.
> Failed Palpatine clone works a million times better than "I survived the explosion
> of a 120km diameter superweapon and the vacuum of space".
I agree for sure. If Palpatine HAD to come back, the failed clone explanation makes the most sense. The movie still failed in the aspect that it didn’t explain it whatsoever within the movie itself but oh well.
I’d have liked if Palpatine looked more like a mix of his prequel version, but just super ancient and creepy, similar to (but not exactly) his OT appearance. That way they could just claim he was the original and the PT/OT version was the clone. But because we saw Palpatine before he got all disfigured, that wouldn’t have worked.
Though that just presents the question as to why the TROS clone has facial disfigurement that looks way more like the OT version and not like PT Palpatine considering it’s a clone and all, but I suppose we can just assume that Palpatine’s power just happened to disfigure it in a similar way to the original.
> I'm also of the opinion people that want rapey, murderous Ben Swolo and Rey to hook
> up are nuts.
Yep. Space nazi who tortured main characters, lead platoons of stormtroopers to slaughter innocent villages, literally killed Han Solo AND, like you said, manipulated Rey throughout the entire trilogy... tying his redemption into a forced romance was pretty cringey and sorta diminished Rey to an extent for apparently wanting that outcome.
Darth Vader’s redemption worked because it was in service to Luke’s story arc - against all odds, Luke got Vader to “see the light” which lead to him finally putting a stop to Palpatine and the Empire. That didn’t absolve Vader of all his heinous crimes, it just allowed Luke to grow into his role as a Jedi while getting to finally meet the man Anakin was before he was an awful monster. It was a redemption for Luke and Luke alone, it didn’t make Vader an all-around hero.
They missed the point of Vader’s redemption by shoehorning Kylo Ren’s redemption into Rey’s survival and making it this weird heroic turn. Making him a sudden love interest just made it more difficult to be into. Their relationship wasn’t the same as Luke/Vader and the redemption wasn’t earned and didn’t make as much sense.
It just made Rey look like an absolute moron. Can't respect the character. She might as well as took a hit off a crack pipe. It would have made as much sense.
Why is it so crazy for Palpatine to have survived that fall? Darth Maul survived a similar fall, after being sliced in half, no less. Luke also survived a similar fall.
I personally think Palpatine surviving would be harder to believe because as soon as Palpatine hits the bottom, a giant blue explosion takes over the shaft insinuating he himself exploded, and then of course the Death Star where the shaft is situated explodes after Lando hits the core and all.
Without all the explosions, I’d have been fine accepting that he just fell out the bottom of the Death Star similar to how Luke dropped out of Cloud City and then Force-pulled himself Leia-style to Exogal (or a closer spot before going to Exogal). But, explosions.
Either way, they ended up taking a different route anyhow so it’s neither here nor there. Clone works enough, if only just enough.
It appeared Palpatine fell into the reactor itself, which apparently vaporized him, and released all of his dark side energy. I like powerful Jedi/Sith, but not Super Saiyans. Flying through the vacuum for more than a minute or two would be a huge task even for him. Darth Maul's survival can be forgiven easier because he has a different biology, his wounds were cauterized, and we can assume he gained some level of control and used the Force to slow himself enough to survive the impact. I mean, it's a stretch but not survive 2 explosions stretch.
The Expanded Universe dealt with a cloned Palpatine as well, in the Dark Empire comics. So after going out of their way to crap-can the E.U. stories, they ended up doing a similar story, and expected the audience to "get" that cloning was involved. It's like they assumed everyone had read those comics and would understand, even though the number of people who read those has to be minuscule compared to the number of people who see the movies.
Yah, I mean they had to do away with the EU because so much of that stuff was pretty rough and didn’t have perfect continuity itself, so I enjoy that they at least cherry picked certain aspects for the new continuity - but there needs to be some semblance of reason plot-to-plot. Had they actually relayed the information that the novel establishes that Kylo Ren recognized the equipment surrounding Palpatine as Clone War-era cloning equipment, that would have literally been all that was needed. But like I said, I think that was the novel’s writer filling in blanks more than anything.
I never thought I’d prefer the EU’s version of “clone Palpatine” (with a younger body and whatnot) over anything because I remember thinking it was real silly, but I’d probably have taken that route as opposed to what they tried in TROS.
I updated my rankings for the SW movies but decided I’m not going to reopen that thread as it seems to draw a bit of toxicity from time to time. Instead I’ll just post it here so it can exist within and eventually be drowned out by general SW conversation.
My rankings:
11. EPISODE II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES I very strongly dislike this movie unless I'm watching the "Fall of the Sith" fan-edit. It's got the worst dialogue from any SW movie and the silliest character decisions. There is barely a story, the characters are all wooden. CGI Yoda is character breaking in regards to his demeanor in the original trilogy. It's cliche to crap on this movie so I'll stop there. 10. EPISODE III: REVENGE OF THE SITH I used to think this was the only prequel I "sort of" liked but now I can't sit through it. There are aspects I liked about this, but there were still decisions that were inconsistent with the OT, which was a staple of the prequels. The third act was an over-the-top WB cartoon, but Hayden Christensen finally came off imposing - only while he was burning to death though. And unfortunately even that was overshadowed by the big "NOO" moment. 9. EPISODE I: THE PHANTOM MENACE This movie has grown on me over the years. It's still decently boring, Jar Jar is still the absolute worst aspect of Star Wars, midichlorians are still the stupidest retcon for one of the OT's major themes I've ever witnessed, and this is still the movie that established the prequel Jedi as an overly-stoic, misguided cult that eventually had to be outed as such by decent writing in later movies/TV shows. But I have nostalgia for having seen it when I was 9, and the practical effects help me appreciate it over the other prequels now that I'm older. Also, the Duel of Fates rules and the 2-on-1 lightsaber fight is the only example of the prequel's dance-fighting that I enjoyed. 8. EPISODE IX: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER After a few rewatches, this one dropped substantially. There were a few too many inconsistencies with what came prior that makes this one not sit as easily with me, and a ton of awful story decisions. From Palpatine’s pointless return, to illogical macguffin fetch quests, to the introduction of underdeveloped side characters instead of building off established characters with the same traits. The list goes on. Still a fine movie visually and the music was great, and there were awesome performances throughout, but overall an extremely unsatisfying conclusion to the saga. 7. SOLO: A STAR WARS STORY I like this movie enough but it doesn't beat out any of the OT or ST movies besides IX for me, and I find Rogue One to be a lot more entertaining as far as the “side stories” go. This one seemed like a straight-from-Extended Universe story - like it could have been several issues of a comic book. There were 2 or 3 movies worth of story in this one, so it came off a bit unbalanced. Some weird character choices too. But overall I dug the tone, the acting, and the visit to the universe. Definitely wasn't "bad" like Attack of the Clones, but only marginally better than the PT. 6. ROGUE ONE: A STAR WARS STORY This one initially put me in the difficult position of moving RotJ further down the list but it just didn't hold up as better than any of the non-PT main series entries upon rewatches. It's still great though. I really dug seeing the war-side of the Universe a bit more, and I enjoyed most of the characters. It was neat seeing it tie into A New Hope. Tarkin's CGI tricked me into thinking they found a good look-alike actor the first time I watched this, and I appreciated the Leia cameo as it wasn't on the screen for longer than it needed to be. 5. EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI This was easily my favorite as a kid and if it weren't for the re-hashed "Death Star" plot that came too soon after ANH's release, it would probably rank a bit higher. The Vader/Luke/Palpatine interaction that happens in this movie is probably my favorite stuff from all of Star Wars. I don't mind the Ewoks as much as other folks, but like I said, that may just be the nostalgia. It certainly did play to children better than the first two. The Jabba's Palace sequence is probably still my favorite opening from any SW movie. 4. EPISODE VII: THE FORCE AWAKENS Now this was a rehash of A New Hope's plot when the world needed a rehash of A New Hope's plot. They put a new skin on it, threw in some memorable new characters to carry the franchise forward and made a movie that actually felt like a Star Wars movies for the first time in 30 years. Even Episode I, which I like to an extent, didn't feel like it was a true SW movie even when I saw it the year it was released. If it weren't for lightsabers and all of the Jedi wearing Obi-Wan robes, it would have come off completely different. But this movie really brought the character design, world building, atmosphere and ambience of the OT back - not to mention the classic characters. I appreciated that. 3. EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI Great follow up to The Force Awakens and an overall great movie. While there were a few more glaringly divisive moments that admittedly threw me off in this one, I really appreciated the subversion of expectations. It's a more challenging Star Wars and a story that's unlike any that came before. Regardless, I enjoyed where it took the characters and where most of them ended up. It was full of fun moments and equally impactful moments. It was a technically sound film and a perfect new direction for the saga. 2. EPISODE IV: A NEW HOPE Still classic. With the budget and DIY stylings that went into this movie, it's truly a miracle that we got a movie that reignited all of pop culture at one time. Just an iconic story and movie that not just Star Wars movies would rehash later on. It can't be understated what this movie meant to cinema at the time. The characters will always be classic and the adventure they went on will always be remembered. 1. EPISODE V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK Obvious first spot. This is the one with all the classic lines, all the classic swerves, and the best written plot of any Star Wars film that came before or after it. The dark side teases, Yoda's first appearance, the Battle of Hoth, Lando, carbonite, etc. There's not much to say that hasn't been said a million times, but it seems like this one will always be my favorite.
I feel like Episode VI and Episode VII could swap spots depending on my mood any given day, maybe Episode IX and Solo too, but otherwise I’m decently firm with the rest.
5 - fills in some blanks, best swerve of all time, great everything. cool action, epic lightsaber battle, world building, leaves you dying to see what happens next. Yoda is extremely likeable. Chewbacca. 4 - fun, adventure, relatable characters, great editing, great pacing, great score, great everything.Chewbacca. 6 - not counting the SE version. love every minute, great finish to the story. I can't whip a chimpanzee, probably can't whip an Ewok either lol. love em. Chewbacca. 7 - good start to a new galaxy, unfortunately rehashes ANH with a stupidly overpowered superweapon. setup interesting mysteries to unravel. Chewbacca. rogue - silly pacing in 1st act. bounces around. takes off in 2nd act and good story and acting. excellent action sequences. no chewbacca 3 - good from start to finish, hampered by some wooden acting and poor opening once Obi-Wan and Anakin board the ship, great duels, dumb padme death. Chewbacca. solo - good all around. main actor was weakest part, but did okay. Angry feminist caricature droid was great. good story overall, but answered questions that didn't need answered. (pistol, name) 8 - great cinematography, boring space chase. cool expansion of the Force. poor follow up to prior film. pointless side quest. Chewbacca. 1 - podrace is fun, Darth maul. Boring otherwise. no chewbacca 9 - very fun, very nonsensical. very pretty. poor follow up to prior film. no character growth. too much happening. Chewbacca. 2 - the chase at the beginning is fun, the last sequences is great. The in between is boooooooooring. no chewbacca
Just my feels in the moment. This list fluctuates slightly each day.
> Had they actually relayed the information that the novel
> establishes that Kylo Ren recognized the equipment surrounding Palpatine as Clone
> War-era cloning equipment, that would have literally been all that was needed.
Yup, one line of dialogue. Done.
> But like I said, I think that was the novel’s writer filling in blanks more than anything.
A lot of the time, the "extras" the novelization adds in are actually taken from earlier drafts of the script, or deleted scenes. So chances are that line was in there at some point.
Yah I mentioned that earlier, but it‘s such an easy fix to help make your movie make sense that it seems ridiculous they’d make the conscious decision to remove it. Oh welp.
I’m bummed that no deleted scenes are being released with this upcoming digital/blu ray release. I really want to see a fan edit of TROS but I feel like there was lots left on the cutting room floor that could help flesh an edit like that out. I’m sure there will be some secondary release with a few more extras. But until then I’m looking forward to seeing what an editor can do with the footage available.
I can't ever decide on my ranking. The only thing I'm sure of is my top 2. Beyond that, IDK. I used to enjoy the prequels more, and defended them a lot, but after my last re-watch, they've dropped considerably. I mean, AotC has been my least favorite for a while, but I enjoyed TPM and RotS was even one of my favorites, but not nearly as much anymore. Anakin is just so annoying, in all 3 of them. I need to give ANH another chance soon, but the last time I watched it, it really bored me, that's why it's so low.
1) Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker 2) Episode VII: The Force Awakens 3) Rogue One: A Star Wars Story 4) Episode VI: Return of the Jedi 5) Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back 6) Episode VIII: The Last Jedi 7) Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 8) Solo: A Star Wars Story 9) Episode IV: A New Hope 10)Episode I: The Phantom Menace 11) Episode II: Attack of the Clones
I think I'm pretty happy with that order right now. 1 and 2 are definitely set, and I'd say 7-12 are mostly set except maybe I could move ANH up a bit. 3-6 could change, idk.
> Did we ever discuss Ewoks vs Stormtroopers here? Need something to fight about haha
I feel like Ewoks had the numbers, knew the terrain and had more of a reason to fight than the stormtroopers. The troopers were pretty much there to guard the shield generator and are infamously awful at combat to begin with haha
And tbh that one shot of the Ewok dying and his buddy trying to get him to move was harrowing enough damnit!
