theJaw wrote:> Grenadier wrote:
>> Jaw, I think you're reading something into Kylo that was never really there. I've
>> never seen any idea that he had knowledge of who she was in 7-8. It was more like
>> he was fascinated by her or crushing on her. What 9 does is reframe that that they
>> had a Force connection as the "dyad" they speak of in 9. That also makes the mental
>> connection they shared in 8 make more sense.
>
> Both Episodes VII and VIII hint that Kylo Ren knew of Rey before TFA.
Nope. You're reaching.
> There's a scene in VII where Kylo Ren is told that "a girl" helped Finn and Poe escape.
> The direction gets very intense - Kylo whips around, pulls his lackey toward him,
> and forcefully asks "What girl!?" That line is the stinger for the scene as it transitions
> to the next immediately after, suggesting there's some importance to the moment.
> This 100% hints that Kylo Ren has knowledge of Rey, or at least a "girl" who could
> pose a threat to him. And this is the very first time the idea of Rey/a "girl" is
> brought up to Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order... so he had no opportunity to
> become "fascinated" with her or to "crush" on her before reacting so oddly to the
> news of a girl aiding his enemies.
Nothing here hints he knew of her. Replace the line about "a girl" with any other noun. He's simply pissed off that someone, ANYONE, is helping Finn and Poe. Someone could have told him that it was a wookie helping, and he'd be ranting "What wookie?!?!?"
The fascination comes later when her realizes her abilities and their mental connection is made in TLJ.
> Some will try to explain that instance away by saying Snoke filled him in about Rey
> (considering Snoke was eventually revealed to be Palpatine), but an hour or so after
> that scene, Snoke tells Kylo Ren "If what you tell me about the girl is true,
> bring her to me." Snoke was clearly written in Episode VII as his own character,
> and clearly had no previous knowledge of Rey.
Yeah, the seams between 7 and 9 are showing again.
> This idea is supported by the fact that Kylo Ren seemingly knows more about her in
> TLJ. Whenever they have their Force-link interactions, his confidence suggests he
> knows more about her than he's letting on. After the Throne Room battle, he straight
> up reveals her origins to her. This movie takes place immediately after TFA, so he
> had no time to research this information or get told about it. So then... how? He
> had to have had some knowledge of her before TFA/TLJ or else none of this makes
> sense to begin with. I think it's clear Johnson picked up on the same hint I picked
> up on from TFA and built off that, because the hint in TFA is pretty blatant.
Simple. He's either talking out of his ass, or he's using the Force to intuit it, perhaps with a boost from Snoke and/or Palpatine.
> Obviously those two movies were written before Episode IX. Palpatine tells Kylo Ren
> that she's "more" than he thinks... suggesting that Kylo Ren still at least somehow
> knew of Rey's origins before having met Palpatine. This creates a bit of a plot hole
> because he definitely knew her parents were "nobodies" without knowing the story
> of Palpatine's involvement.
Or again....his info is limited because he's getting it from Force visions and half-truths from his master(s).
>> The Starkiller Base thing still makes no sense. That was not a project to complete
>> in a year while killing time waiting for the Star Destroyer fleet to be done. That
>> seemed more like something they would have had to work on for the last couple of
>> decades, much as the Death Star was a decades long project.
> I didn't say Starkiller Base (or the fleet) was made in just a year, I suggested
> that it's possible Palpatine's fleet was only completed in the year between VIII
> and IX, which would explain why they used the Starkiller Base as a headstart. The
> Starkiller Base easily could have been a decade-long project, and with the technology
> advances, it's not too large of a stretch. Palpatine/Snoke could have had Hux/the
> First Order begin construction of Starkiller Base well after the fleet began getting
> assembled for the reason I'm about to explain below.
>
>> If it WAS a one year project, it was still a dumb idea. Why tip your hand with one
>> WMD, when they had a thousand more that close to completion?
>
> The Starkiller Base project acting as a front would make enough sense. Palpatine
> could have created the First Order simultaneous to the "Final Order" so that they
> had a WMD capable of taking out all the planets of the Republic at once (which they
> did). That would ultimately strengthen Palpatine's chances of a complete takeover
> when he eventually decided to come out of hiding, and when his fleet was complete
> (which according to my theory would have been between Episodes VIII and IX). If they
> needed extra time to complete the fleet, it'd make sense to get a head start on removing
> some of Palpatine's obstacles before he unleashed his primary plan.
The level of engineering required just seems out of line. If you could build a bunch of ships, that's a much simpler task than hollowing out a planet, making it mobile, and figuring out how to suck a star dry, contain, that energy, and shoot it across hyperspace.
> Nobody knew Palpatine was still alive - he and his fleet and all his weird followers
> were hidden from the rest of the galaxy. So unveiling a WMD wouldn't have "tipped"
> his hand regardless. Nobody knew he was still around and thus nobody would have been
> lead to believe he was behind it, or had other larger plans.
Except it did exactly that. If he keeps ALL of his forces in the Unknown Regions until the fleet was ready, instead of running around and starting trouble, then there is no reason for a Resistance to be formed. He'd have been better off sitting out there, building his fleet, and then blitzing everyone once he had 1000 Death Stars ready to go.
>> The Emperor's broadcast also makes no sense. He gave up the element of surprise,
>> and did it before his superfleet was ready to go. Admittedly, he caused a bit
>> of terror in the galaxy. But he also gave the good guys advance warning that they
>> had to get their crap together, thus causing the final battle to start before the
>> fleet was ready.
>
> He didn't broadcast anything before his fleet was complete. He transmitted his message
> of revenge, and then Kylo Ren immediately sought him out. As soon as Kylo Ren finds
> him, he unveils his fleet. It's not like they just finished it the second Kylo Ren
> got there... they were clearly ready to go before he showed up. Remember, Palpatine
> was hidden unless you had one of the two Sith wayfinders, so he likely hedged his
> bets on Kylo Ren tracking him down before the Resistance could figure it out considering
> Kylo Ren knew where one of the wayfinders were as is apparent from the opening scene
> of TROS.
>
> The fleet was airborne
Yes, but trapped.
> and ready before that final battle happened. They rise at the
> beginning of the movie and then attack the Resistance the second they show up. Palpatine
> and the fleet weren't caught off guard at all by any of this. It seemed his plan
> worked without a hitch until the final "battle" between he and Rey.
He broadcast before the fleet was out of the atmosphere. Basically, his fleet was trapped there, unable to leave atmosphere, and therefore vulnerable. Dumb move to pick a fight with the Resistance when he could have waited until that fleet was not sitting there ripe for destruction.