The great debate... Star Wars. I can feel @Jeffro and plenty of others punching holes through their computers whenever a large Star Wars discussion breaks out... so in response to a few posts that were left in the movie discussion thread, I figured it'd make sense to just move it here and carry on any Star Wars analyzing/debating to this thread.
I urge folks that if they want to talk anything Star Wars to do it here - of course unless it's solely to share your opinion/review on a movie, then the Movie thread works. I'd obviously rather this not be the case but I don't want to clog up the other thread. Let's try to keep this discussion story-driven and not politics-driven but heck, I can't control you animals.
> It's definite that Taika is directing a SW movie, we just don't know what exactly
> it will be yet, right?
Well Lucasfilm has a history of replacing directors but Taika is so popular that they just can't this time. So, yah, he's confirmed but the actual movie itself is unknown so far. Would be wonderful to find out what he's doing during Celebration.
For those interested, here's the YouTube link for the Celebration live stream. Starts at 3:30 eastern. It says it's the "complete Celebration day 1" but of course it starts immediately after the Lucasfilm Showcase, which is likely where all the most important stuff will be revealed/discussed. No idea why they chose to do that but whatev I suppose.
They basically redid it all for the live stream. Sounded like they basically had the guests do the panel, and turn around and do it again for the stream and the fans in that room.
First 2 episodes of Kenobi dropped 3 hours early, it’s out on Disney+ right now. Watching the first ep now & going to a watch gathering tomorrow to watch both. Happy to be excited for Star Wars again (pls be better than Episode IX & Book of Boba Fett).
I didn't really rub up against the actors in Kenobi so far. I know Kumail Nanjiani seemed a bit out of place because he was literally just playing the same character he would in any project, but even then I didn't really mind it too hard. I liked the character's heroism at the end of the second episode, honestly. My biggest complaint is the pacing of Episode 2, and how long the "Leia runs away" shtick lasted. To be honest, I don't really understand Leia's motivation to run away in the first place, but I can chalk that up to her being young and naive, not understanding the actual situation.
But yah, Andor's trailer over-delivered big time. What was originally my least anticipated SW show, is suddenly right up there at the top. It looks great. Here's hoping it delivers an actually-good narrative and they didn't just pluck all the best shots for the teaser.
Kenobi has been great so far. I loved ep 3. I especially loved that they still had JEJ voicing Vader. I remember thinking the voice for Vader in Rogue One seemed frail...like JEJ's voice had got weak with age, but he was prefect in this one. It also feels cooler just KNOWING that Hayden Christensen is in the suit. The fight was fantastic too. Vader feels so powerful and Obi-Wan feels like a guy completely out of practice and overpowered.
My one quibble. I wish they used the Imperial March for Vader. I know John Williams music is not used for the shows, but it definitely felt like a lost opportunity. They spared no expense for these shows. Just pay the man and use his masterpiece.
@bonham2 They could totally still use Williams’ music, I think it’s more of a decision not to, but yah it would’ve been nice to hear. Maybe they’re saving it for the finale or something.
Williams actually scored the Kenobi show’s theme song, but the rest of the show is being scored by Natalie Holt.
The first one had parts that I enjoyed, but the map was the worst of any game I've ever played. I still haven't finished the platinum, because it's so easy to get lost trying to find all of the collectibles.
I didn't notice JFO being janky or anything like that, I really loved the mechanics and the lightsaber combat is the best of any SW game yet imo.
I CAN see the map criticism I suppose. I mean, I had no trouble with it, but I wish it was generally a bit more "open world" and not as linear as it was. Traveling to new planets should seem like TRAVELING TO NEW PLANETS, not "traveling to one specific, very small area of a planet".
A couple bullet points from the first day of Star Wars Celebration from London:
-3 new live action movies were announced. They will be head up by Dave Filoni (so many SW projects), James Mangold (Logan, Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny), and Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy (Ms. Marvel). Let’s hope these actually happen and don't get fudged like so many other SW projects under Kathleen Kennedy (who is a great producer, but isn't the greatest fit for SW imo).
-Daisy Ridley is returning as Rey in the Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy-lead movie, which will take place after The Rise of Skywalker and apparently revolve around Rey attempting to rebuild the Jedi Academy.
-Mary Elizabeth Winstead is playing Hera from Rebels in Ahsoka. Love Winstead, loved Hera in Rebels, so this is just a neat little addition.
-They apparently debuted a clip from episode 7 of The Mandalorian that teases some neat story progression regarding certain returning characters, both from Mandalorian and other SW stories, but I don’t wanna spoil. I find the tease very interesting though. The link at the bottom of this post delves deeper into it.
-Andor Season 2 is aiming for August 2024 release. This has been my personal favorite Star Wars output since The Last Jedi, so I'm excited to see how it wraps up.
-Star Wars: The Acolyte is apparently described as "Frozen Meets Kill Bill" (somehow) and will release in 2024.
-They revealed "The Skeleton Crew" footage to the London crowd, but no footage has been released online and there's still no release date.
The Filoni movie is apparently a finale for the Mandalorian/Boba Fett/Ahsoka storylines.
The Mangold movie is about the Dawn of the Jedi.
There was a new Indiana Jones trailer in Friday's coverage too. They are now referring to it as the "end of the franchise," implying no one will be recast as Indy in the future. We'll see how long that lasts.
> Daisy Ridley returning as Rey: great, love her character and she is at the perfect
> level to put wonderful story arcs through her character.
I'm pretty excited for it tbh. I like Rey, but I never LOVED her, and I thought what The Rise of Skywalker did to her character was pretty silly. That said, I'm interested to see where they bring her & the Jedi Academy next. Apparently her movie takes place 15 years after the Battle of Exegol from TROS, so that time jump alone gets me real interested.
>
> The fact that Disney's track record on almost ALL media has been near horrible the
> last few years says to me: nope. Not even Rey can save it.
I don't think this is an accurate assessment in the slightest, but to each their own.
> The Filoni movie is apparently a finale for the Mandalorian/Boba Fett/Ahsoka storylines.
Yeah I read that after the fact. That gets me pumped. Did they say it was a full-on "finale" or just sort of a big climax for those shows with the possibility of continuations down the line, similar to what The Avengers was for the MCU? With all the Rebels characters returning for Ahsoka and, I assume, the Filoni movie, I'd love to see more of them in the future.
> The Mangold movie is about the Dawn of the Jedi.
This is also neat. I know that this was the time period that the GOT show-runners were aiming for before they got the axe, so it seems Lucasfilm is all-in when it comes to showing us the early days of the Jedi. That should be real interesting to see.
> The fact that Disney's track record on almost ALL media has been near horrible the
> last few years says to me: nope. Not even Rey can save it.
This ignores an awful lot of good product. Mandalorian, Bad Batch, and Andor, for starters. I actually enjoyed Obi-Wan, though I know that is not a popular opinion.
>> The Filoni movie is apparently a finale for the Mandalorian/Boba Fett/Ahsoka storylines.
>
> Yeah I read that after the fact. That gets me pumped. Did they say it was a full-on
> "finale" or just sort of a big climax for those shows with the possibility of continuations
> down the line, similar to what The Avengers was for the MCU? With all the Rebels
> characters returning for Ahsoka and, I assume, the Filoni movie, I'd love to see
> more of them in the future.
I'd imagine it could be either. But with Skeleton Crew and The Acolyte waiting in the wings, maybe they are wrapping it up, for now. They could always reopen that era if they had a story to tell. I suppose we'll find out as we get closer to that movie.
> This ignores an awful lot of good product. Mandalorian, Bad Batch, and Andor, for
> starters. I actually enjoyed Obi-Wan, though I know that is not a popular opinion.
And that's just SW. Between the MCU, the documentaries and the pure Disney stuff (especially the children's animation realm), there has been lots of good media put out by Disney. Some misses for sure, but it certainly isn't close to "almost all".
I thought Obi-Wan was just okay, mostly sorta rough, but it does have one of my all-time favorite SW moments in that finale, with the Obi-Wan/Darth Vader conversation.
It's almost all garbage. One's "just okay" and "liked but not LOVED" is many people's "garbage" and "hated, not liked". Again...you can like what you want but the many many failed sales projections that come about on these movies are either showing that the audiences aren't having it.
> It's almost all garbage. One's "just okay" and "liked but not LOVED" is many people's
> "garbage" and "hated, not liked". Again...you can like what you want but the many
> many failed sales projections that come about on these movies are either showing
> that the audiences aren't having it.
>
>
I don't know if your analysis of the sales is accurate. I looked this up not to argue, but because I was genuinely curious as to the info, and just a quick bit of research reveals that Disney+ has only been gaining revenue since 2020, other than the final 3 months of 2022, where it dropped 2.4 million subs entirely due to the version of Disney+ in the India market losing rights to stream IPL (Indian Premier Leage) cricket matches late in the year. Otherwise, Disney's streaming services are apparently doing much better than analysts projections: "In the U.S./Canada, Disney+ gained about 200,000 subs (to reach 46.6 million). Hulu gained 800,000 in the quarter to stand at 48.0 million, and ESPN+ increased by 600,000 to 24.9 million." And on top of that, they seem to be gaining revenue in other areas like film and parks/experiences. Sure some movies like Solo and The Rise of Skywalker, along with a few MCU movies, failed to meet projections - but they still ultimately made money as opposed to lost it.
Even despite that doom and gloom headline, the majority of the news in that article is positive for Disney, obviously other than the drop in the India market.
So yah, like you said, one is free to like or dislike anything dependent on their tastes, but a personal opinion on certain movies/shows doesn't necessarily translate to a universal overall drop from the audience. A certain sect of the audience may not be "having it", but that doesn't seem to be the majority in this particular scenario.
Look at this crazy crap. A visual effects artist who worked on projects like Andor, House of the Dragon, Black Adam, etc, is fan-editng the Obi-Wan Kenobi show into a film that works with established canon more, and he's completely redoing certain VFX shots. He's even doing re-shoots for additional footage to make his narrative work better. The trailer alone already looks better than the series. I'm pumped to give it a go.
Been on yet another Star Wars kick lately (obviously) and can't help but continue to be disappointed in how the ST ended up. I really enjoyed 2/3 of it, and can still have fun watching The Rise of Skywalker despite its several flaws, but upon more re-watches, the whole backlash between Episodes VIII and IX still really baffles me. More whining in spoiler tags:
It's just wild to me that people watch The Last Jedi & complain that the ending left nothing for the third movie, often times claiming that Snoke dying meant there was no "big bad" left. Completely ignoring the fact that in killing Snoke and assuming the role of Supreme Leader, Kylo Ren literally establishes himself AS the big bad. Everyone got so obsessed with Snoke's backstory (which honestly was never even hinted at being all that important), but it could have been as simple as "he was the next in a line of leadership figures that tried to continue the vision of the Empire". Simple, easy, not as stupid as him being one of several identical vessels for Palpatine to possess. Kylo killing him could have simply illustrated that he wasn't as fit for the job as one would think after seeing him present himself via giant hologram to come off more imposing.
But because Abrams/Lucasfilm clearly wanted to shoehorn a hamfisted redemption story into Episode IX for no other reason than "this is a new Star Wars movie", they whiffed the whole thing. Snoke being a vessel doesn't even make sense. Why would Palpatine need a vessel? Surely appearing in his recognizable Darth Sidious form, as mangled as it was, would have worked far better at inspiring anyone inclined to carry out the Empire's vision than a random new guy? It absolutely would have helped Kylo Ren turn to the dark side even quicker than he did, and with way more focus, given how obsessed he was with Vader's life. Exegol was still a hidden planet... he could have appeared via hologram and stayed "off the grid" just fine. So The Rise of Skywalker's Snoke reveal really just shows us that Palpatine arbitrarily created a new, taller body to function through for a while... just because. Obviously that wasn't the initial plan, but they felt as if they had to pay off Snoke in some more significant way after his death and I just cannot understand why. It's okay for a villain to simply exist as a character, and then die in service of another character's villain arc. There was no need to over-complicate it, but Lucasfilm bent the knee to the loudest sect of SW fans who were looking for something to be upset about.
And I'm not even suggesting Kylo Ren can't be redeemed in any way, it was just lame the way TROS pulled it off. He was the quintessential space Nazi from war crimes all the way to manipulating a woman for his own selfish deeds. But because Rey Force heals him and he talks to ...a memory of Han Solo... he just turns 100% good guy. Had he remained the big bad for Episode IX, it would have been fine to see him get some small gesture of redemption at the end of the movie without completely returning to the light side of the Force and would have ultimately meant more if something happened to make him see just a little clearer as opposed to go full hero. And to kill him so quickly after that... rough. With Rey returning for a future movie, I really wish there could have been continued adventures of Kylo Ren, where he continued to struggle with the light and dark inside him.
Yeah, I agree they did Kylo Ren poorly with that last movie. I don't jump into the hate train with those movies, as I think they have some cool stuff in them, but how they managed the trio of baddies wasn't the best.
Yah I'm with you, no hate. Just disappointment really. I really like The Force Awakens, love The Last Jedi, and dislike The Rise of Skywalker aside from the visuals. To be honest, TROS may be the most visually pleasing of any Star Wars movie, just a pure spectacle of effects. So no hate train here, I just wish they either a) had a more clear map for what the trilogy was going to be and used one writer for the whole thing, or b) followed through on what was introduced in Episodes VII and VIII for Episode IX.
Folks can dislike the story decisions made in The Last Jedi, completely valid to rub up against some of the events in that movie, but that doesn't negate the fact that those events were still entirely plausible, story-wise, in the aftermath of The Force Awakens. TLJ's story certainly wasn't what was expected as they didn't rely on the sought after SW tropes, but nothing that happened in that movie straight up erased what happened in the previous movie like some folks tend to suggest. It just didn't present the most predictable continuations of the story threads TFA introduced, which I personally loved. It was The Rise of Skywalker that truly retconned not just TLJ's story, but plenty of what JJ Abrams himself established in TFA.
So yah, I wish they would have just let one person helm the entire trilogy from the get go, or had some creative integrity and just committed to the story they already green-lit when they made The Last Jedi as the sequel to The Force Awakens. Those two movies presented a perfect villain arc for Kylo Ren that had the potential to get a great pay off in Episode IX, but they just went back to the well instead.
Yah it’ll be cool to see Rey back for sure. Though I’m mostly excited to see the specific subject matter of her movie. Finally seeing a cinematic take on the New Jedi Academy is gonna rule big time.
I found the sequel trilogy to be an enormous disappointment and struggle to find too many redeeming qualities in those movies. The original trilogy and prequel trilogy had their faults but the characters (mostly) were interesting and entertaining.
Aside from BB-8, Maz Kanata, and Vice Admiral Holdo, none of the characters are likeable or interesting in these 3 movies. The story was half clone of previous installments and half 'took too much valium before putting pen to paper'. I'm not sure how many times you can re-release the Wizard of Oz before someone needs to do something new with it.
For starters, you've got Rey. Ignoring how creepy it is thinking about Palps getting it on long after he was disfigured and avoiding the obvious mathematical 'irregularities' that could possibly make her his grand daughter, everything else is bland. Keep in mind that Ben Solo is Anakin's grandson...who is 10 years older than her. Anakin was a little kid when Palps was 52 years old in the Phantom Menace. Before she gets a moment of any training, she manages to basically defeat him, who was only trained by Luke Skywalker his entire life. This is the same guy who defeats Snoke a few hours later. The series does nothing to develop any sort of personality for her. That said, I feel Daisy Ridley 'could' have been an excellent character but the writing just ruined it. Hopefully any further movies with Rey have someone who actually heard of Star Wars at the helm to salvage her.
Finn - Mr. Friendzone....Honestly, the character just sucks.
Poe - Poe could have been a top guy in the series but they basically ignored him and did nothing to develop him other than some loudmouth hotshot pilot who annoys everyone.
Ben Solo - I like Adam Driver as an actor but couldn't figure out the whole emo pouty child he played in this. One would expect the child of Han Solo and Leia Organa to have some of the qualities of one or both parents....but he has none of them. Boring and miscast, poorly written, and impossible to take seriously as any sort of villain aside from his opening scene. After that, he just sucked.
Returning cast from 4-6 were mostly 'meh'. Their characters, aside from Leia, were watered down and forgettable. Nothing with Luke made an ounce of sense.
----
Moving on to the TV shows and animated stuff, it's fantastic - all of it. Each of them has snuck in little things throughout that really resonate while connecting a lot of dots in the movies and build the franchise. I've re-watched all of them and will again. Even 'minor' characters such as Axe Woves, Kuill, Teva, etc can be cared about easily compared to any of the sequel trilogy characters.
Didn't neg you, but I disagree with a good 85-90% of that post haha. BUT that's Star Wars for ya, the entire fandom is just a sea of vastly varying opinions.
That’s how folks need to be with SW, or else they’ll end up complaining nonstop. I admit I post my qualms here because I write a lot so I like to discuss story details, even if I dislike them. But I don’t hate any of it. I can sit and watch pretty much anything SW related and be perfectly entertained for the most part.
…but Attack of the Clones puts that philosophy to the test lol
