General

Lunar wrote:

What would you propose? No guns? Limited guns? Crazy guy could steal a bus and drive through story time theater. Or strategically place pipe bombs along a marathon route. No guns involved in either scenario. Clearly if the individual (for one reason or another ) is ok with taking lives, they can find a means.

Not that your comment was directed at me but in my opinion, again getting to the root of mental illness is the bigger fish. Not scapegoating. I simply don’t see guns as the root cause.

Sitrep (Situation report) as of today, apparently the suspect had heard people 'say things about him'...

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/police...

Safe to say he had some sort of mental issue. And Maine doesn't require a weapon license nor does it prohibit sale of extended magazines...

My friends brother ended their mom's life over the summer. Why? Because the VA is in very bad shape. You can blame gun control all you want, but the fact of the matter is, people are not getting the treatment they need after traumatic incidents.

My friends brother had PTSD and other stuff. And he spiraled out of control. He did it because he was hallucinating. This incident is eerily familiar in terms of somebody not getting help from our country. I feel horrible for my friend and I'm trying to brighten his days just a little bit.

benstylus wrote:
...

I agree with all of that -- but I still think Lunar is right that we can celebrate a reduction in insulin price from an average of almost $100/month to a cap of $35/month.

I think that is all he was saying. Not that it "solves" everything -- again, what you said is still true. But it is likely still a think to be celebrated in this country.

loztdogs wrote:

Yea, people can do alot with planes, buses, trucks etc. But the easiest thing to do massive amount of damage in a short amount of time, is an AR-15 type weapon. With little to no safeguards in place, it has been pretty easy I'd say. I don't claim to have all th answers but 1 thing is certain, ease of obtaining a gun is directly linked to ease of mass murders in this country. I want a national background check and red flag laws. I want a ban on semi auto guns. I want a week delay in obtaining weapons legally. None of these violate 2nd amendment in my opinion but it has enough deterrence for any impulsive urge to shoot up a place. Even one of these could save hundreds of lifes, again, the goal isn't to completely eradicate mass murders, it's deterrence and hopefully prevention.

The idea of "let's look at everything else first, then, maybe we can check if guns are the issue". What is the one thing all of these ~600+ mass murders this year have in common?

Lunar wrote:

Both mental health and guns. I'm not even interested in firearms myself. But the truth is, it starts with the stability of the person who is behind the weapon.

You often hear people say they never expected the person to do what they did in these situations. After what happened to my friend, I do believe that in a good amount of cases. My friends brother was always laughing and having a good time. It wasn't the real him behind the gun, it was his mental state.

My friend is standing with his brother too. And doesn't want him to rot in prison. And I fully support him because the VA failed him.

https://www.wmtw.com/article/how-president-biden-m...

Congressman who represents Lewiston is now calling for ban on assault weapons. I mean, that's a good but maybe shouldn't have waited until your district is on national news.

Lunar wrote:

You’re not wrong. I agree we definitely need to keep guns out of the hands of those that intend to do harm. I also agree that those that intend to do harm should not have easy access to firearms. My point is. My hope would be if we were to really treat mental illness effectively (like actually put effort in) we could reduce the total number of incidents. Resulting in far less planes, buses, trucks and gun related mass murders. I just don’t know what the balance is between folks like me and mentally Ill people that want to kill me. It certainly isn’t the demonizing of guns. It would just be something different. (Insert weapon of choice here)

Let's put into perspective. A purported mentally ill guy who is depressed and distressed, probably will not have the mental capacity to plan out an elaborate attack involving many moving parts. If they can walk into a flea market and buy an AR15 in the morning, and they can go shoot up a crowded place after lunch and a piss. That's what happens. And there's plenty of precedent to this exact scenario.

Anyway, mental illness, yes, it's an issue by itself. Combined with ease of obtaining a weapon of war, that's a formula for 600 mass shootings a year.

Gun control will never work. Let's hypothetically say we become a communist country by removing the 2nd amendment (good luck with that btw,) and force everyone to turn in their weapons. There will be a black market, much like buying drugs off the streets. What do you think would happen in that scenario? One mass shooting has the potential to outnumber all the others combined.

Solution? Obviously everyone needs to be armed openly and without a permit, like it used to be. You obviously cannot rely on cops to protect you all the time. Their response times are slow, and the number of crooked cops are going up, because all the good ones are quitting because of the anti-police movements and cries for defunding the police. You would be better off relying on citizens who aren't mentally ill for help.

As for me, I will never get rid of my guns and lose my rights over what someone else does, and if you're butthurt about it, I have two words for ya.

Fudge you.

At the end of the day… criminals are gonna criminal.

loztdogs wrote:

I don't agree with this.

It's like saying addicts are gonna addict, so why not let them have easy access to their drug/alcohol of choice.

bluemetal04 wrote:

Easy there fella. No one is coming for your guns. Though, in the event that your hypothetical plays out, good luck holding on to them.

Lunar wrote:

It was tongue in cheek. But we do, don’t we… methadone?

But kind of ironic no? For the alcoholic or drug addicted. Do we treat the disease at the root or do we just remove access to these substances for everyone? I realize it’s not the same thing but the principles are similar.

We do both. Not completely removing access, but regulated. Honestly, similar solution can be had. Anything dangerous is regulated. Not sure why guns would be an exception. Regulation of guns + mental illness treatment. Come on, we can vote on that?

bluemetal04 wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I may just be cynical but I don’t see a realistic scenario where we institute any kind of gun reform. If consistent annual 600+ mass shootings some of which exclusively targeted dozens of defenseless schoolchildren don’t motivate change then nothing will. Because fundamentally the left thinks guns are the cause and the right thinks guns are our only defense against them and both sides hold fast to their views. With greater political polarization than ever there will be no compromise on gun legislation.

Pro-gun people frequently blame mental health which likely plays a part at least in some shootings but there has been little health care reform with that in mind. With every shooting mental health is discussed but zero is ever done.

As a result, mass shootings are here to stay. They’re not going anywhere. That’s the grim reality.

Staraang wrote:

Views are great except when there is empirical evidence. The US far outstrips any other high income country where gun ownership is more heavily regulated.

From a 2018 study, we have 4.12 gun related deaths per 100,000 people.

The next closest is Chile with 1.82, then Canada with 0.5. Perhaps people are too spread out in Canada so that's why there aren't more. Let's look at more densely populated countries.

Sweden? 0.25.
Germany? 0.08.
UK? 0.04
Japan? 0.02

https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-bl...

Someone want to tell me why we have 100 times more gun deaths per capita than the UK?

People in all these countries have mental health problems just like people on the US. So why don't we read about folks getting mass murdered there on the regular?

It's the culture. As a country we are obsessed with guns and whatever image we believe guns convey. Masculinity, power, security, looking super cool. There are estimated to be 20% more civilian-owned guns in the USA than there are civilians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_o...

I know people who fondle and caress their guns (though they wouldn't call it that if you asked them). It's like a masturbatory experience for them. The gun defines them. It is their fantasy and ideal life. They may not be rich, or have the best job, but by gum they own a firearm so they're doing something right.

You want to talk mental health, there's a place to start.

Staraang wrote:

It's not for lack of trying. Remember when Sandy Hook was gonna be a reckoning? Then we had multiple Sandy Hooks since.
Elections have consequences. So vote for people who campaign on gun reform, it's not guaranteed they will, but at least don't vote for the gun nuts.


This is precisely why I think mental health is just being paraded as the scapegoat. While it's an issue on its own, mental health doesn't mass murder.


Sad but true. Though there's hope, vote, like your life depends on it.

Lunar wrote:


The article in the op clearly eludes to mental health mass murdered.

If mental health is discussed but zero is ever done… so why start now, amiright?

The firearms in my safe have never mass murdered. Not one.

loztdogs wrote:

And how many mentally ill people you know have mass murdered? Not one I assume.

Guns are the problem. Period. Full Stop.

Mental health is a factor too, but again, it's not uniquely a US problem.

I suspect we will just be doing this back and forth, so let's not.

This talking point is actually covered in this segment aired yesterday.

Mental health mentioned starting 4:48

https://youtu.be/6mughfNBfx0?si=7gFB4o-E2RqYdlkF&t...

Lunar wrote:

I agree with the points in the video. My argument wasn't about gun control. Hopefully that been clear.

benstylus wrote:

I agree with you. It's very hard to change the culture. Mental health is a piece of it but not everything. And there's no political will to address the mental health aspect. After every shooting there's handwringing about deficient mental health care. But that's all - no action. I've witnessed that for decades and I just don't see that changing after another mass shooting which has more or less become routine at this point.



Lunar wrote:

I was alluding to Sandy Hook in my earlier post. If you can't get behind common-sense gun reform after an atrocity like Sandy Hook then I don't think there's hope for you.


You really think that will help? I'm being honest here, not sarcastic or condescending. Democrats held both houses and the presidency when Obama came into office but were unsuccessful in passing meaningful gun control legislation even after Sandy Hook. I do think there are Republicans who are interested in passing restrictions on guns but not if they want to hold on to office. NRA scorecards are too important to their election prospects.

loztdogs wrote:

Neither had the gun used in Maine until the shootings happened. So not sure of your point...

Although I guess I would be more concerned if you DID have a personal collection of guns that were previously used in mass shootings.

benstylus wrote:

My point has been and still is Metal Heath is root cause. The cycle will continue until the real problem is addressed. Imo An assault weapon ban is not going to stop mass murdering. I’m fine with regulation. Criminals should not have weapons of any kind. The mentally ill person is just going to find another means to cause harm.

Staraang wrote:

Eventually, there will be enough pressure to change. It's cruel but hopefully, with enough Sandy Hooks, people will reconsider, like this conservative Democrat congressman from Maine who is now for gun reform.

Filibuster needs to be waived for it to work. When was the last time we had 60 Democrat senators?

In the last bout, two senators held the line in opposition (Manchin and Sinema), Sinema is on her way out. But Dems Senate is likely to lose majority in 2024, but one can hope

There was a minor bipartisan gun law passed earlier this year, so it's not as bleak as we think.

loztdogs wrote:

How do you explain other countries having similar mental health issues but nowhere near as many mass shootings?

Lunar wrote:

I can’t. I don’t know the economics, culture, accountability, morales etc.. of these countries.

Again… I’m ok with gun control. And again, I’m advocating for mental health reform. Hell do them both in tandem. We just simply can’t keep saying yeah we have problem but what ya gonna do.

loztdogs wrote:

You mean like we do for climate change, college tuition, healthcare, etc.?

A shrug and a collective "meh" is what modern America does best.

But do you see the fail in logic when we compare to other similar countries, we stand alone in the 600 mass shootings a year? Given that we have similar background in economy, education, mental health etc?

And the only difference is ease of access to weapons.

Lunar wrote:

Many of those other countries have socialized health care, and they might have better access to mental health services, or at least less of a stigma surrounding them. Too many people here still think if you have mental health problems mean you are a failure as a human being for not being strong enough.

Luckily the people who are 2nd Amendment hawks are also for universal health care...

Right?

Just popping in to say that local news channels are saying the suspect in this particular case has been found dead.

https://fox23maine.com/news/local/body-murder-susp...

They'll hold a press conference in 20 minutes.

benstylus wrote:


Well it's not like the average Canadian can go days without seeing another Canadian 80% of our population is urban. Our gun laws are pretty stricked by US standards but we do own a decent amount of guns. I think we rank #6 in the world in gun ownership.

Friend lives .3 miles from the shooting. Walks by the bowling alley every day. Knows people killed. It’s fudging disgusting. The 2nd amendment isn’t worth this, sorry.

This isn’t stopping. It won’t. This country will destroy itself from the inside out, unfortunately.

We’re doomed.

bluemetal04 wrote:

Is that really what you believe communism is? If people democratically passed a law to change/edit/revise the 2nd amendment... You think THAT is what communism is?

image

But... The development of the industrial bourgeoisie! The worker's control of the means of production! The struggle of the urban proletariat!

https://youtu.be/JsvFwOLWyC8

To be clear, I'm not against people who really have no way to offer immediate assistance offering thoughts and prayers. Sometimes just knowing other people recognize your pain is a helpful coping tool.

But it irks me to no end when lawmakers do it and believe that satisfies their obligations instead of working towards making meaningful policy changes.

The second amendment was written during a time when the guns of the day were muskets and single shot pistols where it would take 20-30 seconds for someone to reload.

Guns have certainly evolved since then. The second amendment can, too.

It's hypocritical for people who have the power to make a meaningful change to offer only thoughts and prayers in lieu of action.

Both parties are certainly guilty of this, but on the gun front, it's strictly the right.