General

"565th mass shooting in the US this year."

Absolutely fudging insane.

'MURICA!

On the plus side that's down so far. It was about 692 in 2021 and 648 for 2022.

Can't count your chickens yet, there are still two more months in the year 😔

Maybe it sounds a little callous but by and large these mass shootings don't affect me anymore.

We've had so many, and the people in power continue to wring their hands and send their "thoughts and prayers" to the victims, but no one actually makes substantive changes because they are more afraid of losing their seat than doing the right thing. Whether it's gun control or mental health care, it's easier to just spout platitudes in the moment and then ignore the problem and hope it goes away. Or that some other story will come along to distract us. And it works because we keep electing these people.

We have 600+ mass shootings every year because we deserve 600+ mass shootings every year for electing enablers.

No one deserves 600+ mass shootings every year. We deserve better.

Not sure who's we but I don't vote for gun nuts.

f you plant corn, you aren't going to grow plums.

America is reaping the seeds that have been sown over the past decades. Deserved? Maybe, maybe not - that's not a point i'm super attached to. But we are getting exactly what we asked for... which may be even worse.

Nothing will change, but thoughts and prayers will save the day!

This really has me considering getting my concealed carry license. I realize this is me basically saying "i'll solve gun violence with a gun" but I'm at a loss as to what else I can do to protect myself and the people I care about. The "random" nature of these events is horrifying.

Only way to deal with the gun epidemic is through legislation. I mean, yes you could arm yourself in case of emergency but that won't do any good long term.

Lunar wrote:

Agree completely

Legislation won't work because it would need to be on a constitutional level. We can barely get one party to fully agree on anything, much less a 2/3 majority in congress followed by 38 individual state legislatures.

The only way anything will actually change is if the culture changes. If owning a gun is seen as a sign of weakness, mental deficiency, and a small penis instead of being seen as a symbol of liberty, power, and a small penis.

It's been done before.

And how do you implement a 'cultural change'?

Lunar wrote:

The last meaningful constitutional change was in the early 1970s, giving 18 year olds the right to vote. And that was hard fought.

The 27th amendment in 1992 (still over 30 years ago) was about when laws involving pay changes to congress take effect. Which I'm pretty sure most people don't care that much about.


It's a long term process. Unfortunaly it mostly involves waiing for old people to die since they rarely change their minds.

I meant the assault rifle ban in the Clinton era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weap...


Sadly, this sounds just as useful as thoughts and prayers.

Which expired almost 20 years ago and has never been renewed. It also never made it to the Supreme Court so we don't know if it would have survived anyway. (Almost certainly not with the current court)

Those were also the pre-social media days, when reaching across the aisle and consensus building was considered a strength, rather than the hyperpartisanship we have now.

There is definitely appetite on the left for a renewal. In the last congress, when Dems had the trifecta, 2 senators kept them back from pausing the filibuster, which would have pressed through many of the liberal agendas.

Anyway, all is to say, if the chaos that's going on in the House right now is any indication, Republicans will almost certainly lose their narrow majority in the House(which was gerrymandered to begin with), and if the Dems can hang on to their hairline majority in the senate(a taller order), and obviously keep the White House(lest we want Orange again), we might see some changes. Better than thoughts and prayers I suppose.

bumsplikity wrote:

Same boat. Never owned, nor wanted to own, but feels like it's gonna be a neccessary evil at some point. The inability to protect my family because of the insanity that may be at my doorstep some day is beyond scary.

@MrBean I encourage you to educate and arm yourself for the protection of your family. Crime does happen and criminals almost certainly will be armed because it's insanely easy to get guns in this country. Here in the south, you can go to a flea market and buy a gun. That's it. That's the entire process. No checks, no waiting period, just walk in with cash and walk out with a shotgun.

I absolutely support gun reform on a legislative level, but I also recognize that gun violence is a very real problem today and arming myself seems like a step I can take in the short term.

If anyone decides to purchase a firearm, do so responsibly. Educate yourself, take your weapon to a range and practice with it, devise a safe way to store away from children, etc etc etc. Owning a gun is a huge responsibility so do not take it lightly.

bumsplikity wrote:


When you are averaging over 1 mass shooting a day is it really that random? odds are there will be another one tomorrow, the next day and well everyday until the calendar rolls over and we start anew. With all the tensions in the middle east December looks like it could be bad.

bumsplikity wrote:

If what you are saying is true about flea markets then that is absolutely abhorrent and disgusting. I am so sick of this country's obsessions with guns and this is coming from someone who grew up around them in a safe and respectable way.

We have been blessed with such a potentially beautiful existence and planet and yet we continuously prove we aren't worthy of it and just generally suck lol

@Finn that is precisely why I put random in quotes. They are random in the sense that they can happen at any time and place but unfortunately pretty commonplace in the US.

@Shane12m it is 100% true, I go to flea markets every single weekend. Some markets ban the sale of firearms as a general rule, but most of them have no such rules in place. It is worth noting that only long guns can be sold, handgun sales are illegal in this manner.

That being said, handgun sales still happen, they are just not openly displayed like the long guns. I could buy a handgun this weekend at the flea market since I'm a super regular and know the right people.

That's sadly true, sorry if the comment may have implied something else.

In Canada we have had 4 mass shootings this year. June/July then Sept and one just 3 days ago. All in Ontario. Now we have pretty tight gun control up here. I do believe it works, but I am not blind and know that it will not stop them all. Honestly I think it's a pretty cowardly tactic that the pro gun people use when there is a shooting you know the "where were your gun laws when this happened" type comments. Its much harder almost impossible to find out how many they have stopped.

I am not anti gun. I live in a pretty damn pro gun part of the country and even I have thought about getting a hand gun. Currently though I am unable to as there is a Freeze on all handgun sales, imports and transfers. Though I would imagine that changes when we get a change of government in the next year or so.

Any sort of rational gun legislation is filed under violation of 2nd amendment rights. No one is asking for banning of all arms sales, just that we put checks in place so dangerous people can't easily get their hands on weapons.

There's always the argument "if criminals want to get a gun, they'll get it by illegal means". Well yea, but let's not give them the leisure of legal means to kill people.

Lunar wrote:

Yes. Apparently there was no "Red Flag" law and this guy had shown that he probably should not have been allowed to be around guns since he threatened to shoot up another place before he did this.

I don’t want to rile anyone up but personally I see the mental health issue the bigger fish. I was a cop in the military and current gun owner. I also have my ccp and have taught both my kids fire arm safety and have taken them to the range for practical application of fire arm safety. I’m also a member of our local shooters association. I also live in a state that allows unrestricted person to person sales of all types of fire arms but does require a back ground check for retail sales.

The article in the op clearly states the shooter had mental issues. Not to make light but the old adage is guns don’t kill people. People kill people. We’d rather send money over seas then invest in those that need help at home. I don’t know what the answer is, slippery slope I suppose.

It's a multi-tiered problem. Mental health is part of it, but the country's obsession with guns is another part of it - potentially also partly linked to mental illness

I don't have an issue with legal recreational gun use. But when your Christmas card photo is your family and about 40 guns that tells me you're beyond recreation. At that point, it's idol worship and guns are your god.

Mental health, sure. Mental health is a global problem though, which means it's not isolated in the US. But the gun problem is uniquely US.

Lunar wrote:

I couldn't help myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bbObqQlOM4

loztdogs wrote:

Did we help those at home before the Ukraine war started? And we stopped since the war started?

This talking point doesn't make sense if you think about it. It's not as if aid to US citizens stopped since Ukraine was invaded, it was never there to begin with.

But let's sunset medicare and SS, why not.

Lunar wrote:

I agree with you. It was just a general thought. It could apply to Vets, homeless, mental health, drug addiction etc… we neglect our own.

I think we could do more for all those groups. Aid to Ukraine, and now Israel, it's more complicated. I think the majority of the population is for aid. But a noticeable minority is against.

We can't even handle basic medical care in the US.

As an example, of the top ten most expensive countries for a one month supply of insulin, you probably wouldn't be surprised to know that the US is number one.

But you might be surprised to find out that the cost in the US is higher than the combined total cost for countries 2 through 8.

Average cost of a one month supply of insulin (top ten most expensive countries):

United States — $98.70

Chile — $21.48
Mexico — $16.48
Japan — $14.40
Switzerland — $12.46
Canada — $12.00
Germany — $11.00
Korea — $10.30
(Sum total of # 2 Chile through #8 Korea = $98.12)

Luxembourg — $10.15
Italy — $10.03

Aren't we glad one of the major parties of our political system fought for and won for us, the price cap of $35 a month on insulin then?

Its a start but by no means cause for celebration.

$35 ia still far and away #1 in the world and more than two and half times the average of #2-#10.

And technically I believe the $35 cost cap only applies legally to Medicare, although the big manufacturers have agreed to do it for other insurance as well.

The max is $35, those you showed are average. Aren't you a glass half empty kind of guy...

Aid is needed.

We can do both... Issue is the programs need to be reviewed and overhauled and then you NEED to make sure once people are done programs that follow up support is there when needed. Tossing money will not aways fix things... I think programs around mental health are more after thoughts then actual programs. Tossing more money at the issue is funding a broken system. Come up with a new plan to fix the system and look at getting the appropriate funding. There is enough government waste that could be stopped to fund programs that we actually need, aid should not be the thing anyone puts on the chopping block.

My problem with the mental health issue is that, it's clearly being scapegoated as the real problem. Like, no the guns are still the problem. Mental Health with no guns, is just a crazy guy.

Lunar wrote:

After having my medication I've been using for years deemed no longer covered by my insurance this year and having to choose between the switch to a less effective medication or paying a much higher amount; and after an unrelated trip to the ER that wiped out a sizeable chunk of my savings even after the $300 copay (WHY IS A COPAY $300?), it would be reasonable to say that I am not the biggest cheerleader for the health care system in the USA. And I have "good" insurance.

I feel like even with insurance, most US households are one serious medical incident away from bankruptcy. Or at least begging family and friends for support with a gofundme.

Lunar wrote:

What would you propose? No guns? Limited guns? Crazy guy could steal a bus and drive through story time theater. Or strategically place pipe bombs along a marathon route. No guns involved in either scenario. Clearly if the individual (for one reason or another ) is ok with taking lives, they can find a means.

Not that your comment was directed at me but in my opinion, again getting to the root of mental illness is the bigger fish. Not scapegoating. I simply don’t see guns as the root cause.

Sitrep (Situation report) as of today, apparently the suspect had heard people 'say things about him'...

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/police...

Safe to say he had some sort of mental issue. And Maine doesn't require a weapon license nor does it prohibit sale of extended magazines...

My friends brother ended their mom's life over the summer. Why? Because the VA is in very bad shape. You can blame gun control all you want, but the fact of the matter is, people are not getting the treatment they need after traumatic incidents.

My friends brother had PTSD and other stuff. And he spiraled out of control. He did it because he was hallucinating. This incident is eerily familiar in terms of somebody not getting help from our country. I feel horrible for my friend and I'm trying to brighten his days just a little bit.

benstylus wrote:
...

I agree with all of that -- but I still think Lunar is right that we can celebrate a reduction in insulin price from an average of almost $100/month to a cap of $35/month.

I think that is all he was saying. Not that it "solves" everything -- again, what you said is still true. But it is likely still a think to be celebrated in this country.

loztdogs wrote:

Yea, people can do alot with planes, buses, trucks etc. But the easiest thing to do massive amount of damage in a short amount of time, is an AR-15 type weapon. With little to no safeguards in place, it has been pretty easy I'd say. I don't claim to have all th answers but 1 thing is certain, ease of obtaining a gun is directly linked to ease of mass murders in this country. I want a national background check and red flag laws. I want a ban on semi auto guns. I want a week delay in obtaining weapons legally. None of these violate 2nd amendment in my opinion but it has enough deterrence for any impulsive urge to shoot up a place. Even one of these could save hundreds of lifes, again, the goal isn't to completely eradicate mass murders, it's deterrence and hopefully prevention.

The idea of "let's look at everything else first, then, maybe we can check if guns are the issue". What is the one thing all of these ~600+ mass murders this year have in common?

Lunar wrote:

Both mental health and guns. I'm not even interested in firearms myself. But the truth is, it starts with the stability of the person who is behind the weapon.

You often hear people say they never expected the person to do what they did in these situations. After what happened to my friend, I do believe that in a good amount of cases. My friends brother was always laughing and having a good time. It wasn't the real him behind the gun, it was his mental state.

My friend is standing with his brother too. And doesn't want him to rot in prison. And I fully support him because the VA failed him.

https://www.wmtw.com/article/how-president-biden-m...

Congressman who represents Lewiston is now calling for ban on assault weapons. I mean, that's a good but maybe shouldn't have waited until your district is on national news.

Lunar wrote:

You’re not wrong. I agree we definitely need to keep guns out of the hands of those that intend to do harm. I also agree that those that intend to do harm should not have easy access to firearms. My point is. My hope would be if we were to really treat mental illness effectively (like actually put effort in) we could reduce the total number of incidents. Resulting in far less planes, buses, trucks and gun related mass murders. I just don’t know what the balance is between folks like me and mentally Ill people that want to kill me. It certainly isn’t the demonizing of guns. It would just be something different. (Insert weapon of choice here)

Let's put into perspective. A purported mentally ill guy who is depressed and distressed, probably will not have the mental capacity to plan out an elaborate attack involving many moving parts. If they can walk into a flea market and buy an AR15 in the morning, and they can go shoot up a crowded place after lunch and a piss. That's what happens. And there's plenty of precedent to this exact scenario.

Anyway, mental illness, yes, it's an issue by itself. Combined with ease of obtaining a weapon of war, that's a formula for 600 mass shootings a year.

Gun control will never work. Let's hypothetically say we become a communist country by removing the 2nd amendment (good luck with that btw,) and force everyone to turn in their weapons. There will be a black market, much like buying drugs off the streets. What do you think would happen in that scenario? One mass shooting has the potential to outnumber all the others combined.

Solution? Obviously everyone needs to be armed openly and without a permit, like it used to be. You obviously cannot rely on cops to protect you all the time. Their response times are slow, and the number of crooked cops are going up, because all the good ones are quitting because of the anti-police movements and cries for defunding the police. You would be better off relying on citizens who aren't mentally ill for help.

As for me, I will never get rid of my guns and lose my rights over what someone else does, and if you're butthurt about it, I have two words for ya.

Fudge you.

At the end of the day… criminals are gonna criminal.

loztdogs wrote:

I don't agree with this.

It's like saying addicts are gonna addict, so why not let them have easy access to their drug/alcohol of choice.

bluemetal04 wrote:

Easy there fella. No one is coming for your guns. Though, in the event that your hypothetical plays out, good luck holding on to them.

Lunar wrote:

It was tongue in cheek. But we do, don’t we… methadone?

But kind of ironic no? For the alcoholic or drug addicted. Do we treat the disease at the root or do we just remove access to these substances for everyone? I realize it’s not the same thing but the principles are similar.

We do both. Not completely removing access, but regulated. Honestly, similar solution can be had. Anything dangerous is regulated. Not sure why guns would be an exception. Regulation of guns + mental illness treatment. Come on, we can vote on that?

bluemetal04 wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I may just be cynical but I don’t see a realistic scenario where we institute any kind of gun reform. If consistent annual 600+ mass shootings some of which exclusively targeted dozens of defenseless schoolchildren don’t motivate change then nothing will. Because fundamentally the left thinks guns are the cause and the right thinks guns are our only defense against them and both sides hold fast to their views. With greater political polarization than ever there will be no compromise on gun legislation.

Pro-gun people frequently blame mental health which likely plays a part at least in some shootings but there has been little health care reform with that in mind. With every shooting mental health is discussed but zero is ever done.

As a result, mass shootings are here to stay. They’re not going anywhere. That’s the grim reality.

Staraang wrote:

Views are great except when there is empirical evidence. The US far outstrips any other high income country where gun ownership is more heavily regulated.

From a 2018 study, we have 4.12 gun related deaths per 100,000 people.

The next closest is Chile with 1.82, then Canada with 0.5. Perhaps people are too spread out in Canada so that's why there aren't more. Let's look at more densely populated countries.

Sweden? 0.25.
Germany? 0.08.
UK? 0.04
Japan? 0.02

https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-bl...

Someone want to tell me why we have 100 times more gun deaths per capita than the UK?

People in all these countries have mental health problems just like people on the US. So why don't we read about folks getting mass murdered there on the regular?

It's the culture. As a country we are obsessed with guns and whatever image we believe guns convey. Masculinity, power, security, looking super cool. There are estimated to be 20% more civilian-owned guns in the USA than there are civilians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_o...

I know people who fondle and caress their guns (though they wouldn't call it that if you asked them). It's like a masturbatory experience for them. The gun defines them. It is their fantasy and ideal life. They may not be rich, or have the best job, but by gum they own a firearm so they're doing something right.

You want to talk mental health, there's a place to start.

Staraang wrote:

It's not for lack of trying. Remember when Sandy Hook was gonna be a reckoning? Then we had multiple Sandy Hooks since.
Elections have consequences. So vote for people who campaign on gun reform, it's not guaranteed they will, but at least don't vote for the gun nuts.


This is precisely why I think mental health is just being paraded as the scapegoat. While it's an issue on its own, mental health doesn't mass murder.


Sad but true. Though there's hope, vote, like your life depends on it.

Lunar wrote:


The article in the op clearly eludes to mental health mass murdered.

If mental health is discussed but zero is ever done… so why start now, amiright?

The firearms in my safe have never mass murdered. Not one.

loztdogs wrote:

And how many mentally ill people you know have mass murdered? Not one I assume.

Guns are the problem. Period. Full Stop.

Mental health is a factor too, but again, it's not uniquely a US problem.

I suspect we will just be doing this back and forth, so let's not.

This talking point is actually covered in this segment aired yesterday.

Mental health mentioned starting 4:48

https://youtu.be/6mughfNBfx0?si=7gFB4o-E2RqYdlkF&t...

Lunar wrote:

I agree with the points in the video. My argument wasn't about gun control. Hopefully that been clear.

benstylus wrote:

I agree with you. It's very hard to change the culture. Mental health is a piece of it but not everything. And there's no political will to address the mental health aspect. After every shooting there's handwringing about deficient mental health care. But that's all - no action. I've witnessed that for decades and I just don't see that changing after another mass shooting which has more or less become routine at this point.



Lunar wrote:

I was alluding to Sandy Hook in my earlier post. If you can't get behind common-sense gun reform after an atrocity like Sandy Hook then I don't think there's hope for you.


You really think that will help? I'm being honest here, not sarcastic or condescending. Democrats held both houses and the presidency when Obama came into office but were unsuccessful in passing meaningful gun control legislation even after Sandy Hook. I do think there are Republicans who are interested in passing restrictions on guns but not if they want to hold on to office. NRA scorecards are too important to their election prospects.

loztdogs wrote:

Neither had the gun used in Maine until the shootings happened. So not sure of your point...

Although I guess I would be more concerned if you DID have a personal collection of guns that were previously used in mass shootings.

benstylus wrote:

My point has been and still is Metal Heath is root cause. The cycle will continue until the real problem is addressed. Imo An assault weapon ban is not going to stop mass murdering. I’m fine with regulation. Criminals should not have weapons of any kind. The mentally ill person is just going to find another means to cause harm.

Staraang wrote:

Eventually, there will be enough pressure to change. It's cruel but hopefully, with enough Sandy Hooks, people will reconsider, like this conservative Democrat congressman from Maine who is now for gun reform.

Filibuster needs to be waived for it to work. When was the last time we had 60 Democrat senators?

In the last bout, two senators held the line in opposition (Manchin and Sinema), Sinema is on her way out. But Dems Senate is likely to lose majority in 2024, but one can hope

There was a minor bipartisan gun law passed earlier this year, so it's not as bleak as we think.

loztdogs wrote:

How do you explain other countries having similar mental health issues but nowhere near as many mass shootings?

Lunar wrote:

I can’t. I don’t know the economics, culture, accountability, morales etc.. of these countries.

Again… I’m ok with gun control. And again, I’m advocating for mental health reform. Hell do them both in tandem. We just simply can’t keep saying yeah we have problem but what ya gonna do.

loztdogs wrote:

You mean like we do for climate change, college tuition, healthcare, etc.?

A shrug and a collective "meh" is what modern America does best.

But do you see the fail in logic when we compare to other similar countries, we stand alone in the 600 mass shootings a year? Given that we have similar background in economy, education, mental health etc?

And the only difference is ease of access to weapons.

Lunar wrote:

Many of those other countries have socialized health care, and they might have better access to mental health services, or at least less of a stigma surrounding them. Too many people here still think if you have mental health problems mean you are a failure as a human being for not being strong enough.

Luckily the people who are 2nd Amendment hawks are also for universal health care...

Right?

Just popping in to say that local news channels are saying the suspect in this particular case has been found dead.

https://fox23maine.com/news/local/body-murder-susp...

They'll hold a press conference in 20 minutes.

benstylus wrote:


Well it's not like the average Canadian can go days without seeing another Canadian 80% of our population is urban. Our gun laws are pretty stricked by US standards but we do own a decent amount of guns. I think we rank #6 in the world in gun ownership.

Friend lives .3 miles from the shooting. Walks by the bowling alley every day. Knows people killed. It’s fudging disgusting. The 2nd amendment isn’t worth this, sorry.

This isn’t stopping. It won’t. This country will destroy itself from the inside out, unfortunately.

We’re doomed.

bluemetal04 wrote:

Is that really what you believe communism is? If people democratically passed a law to change/edit/revise the 2nd amendment... You think THAT is what communism is?

image

But... The development of the industrial bourgeoisie! The worker's control of the means of production! The struggle of the urban proletariat!

https://youtu.be/JsvFwOLWyC8

To be clear, I'm not against people who really have no way to offer immediate assistance offering thoughts and prayers. Sometimes just knowing other people recognize your pain is a helpful coping tool.

But it irks me to no end when lawmakers do it and believe that satisfies their obligations instead of working towards making meaningful policy changes.

The second amendment was written during a time when the guns of the day were muskets and single shot pistols where it would take 20-30 seconds for someone to reload.

Guns have certainly evolved since then. The second amendment can, too.